Exam hacks with Sander de Groot

[00:00:00] Music

[00:00:21] Explain it, she said, yeah, OK Dad, see what you mean but no, not for me

[00:00:26] Classic teenager

[00:00:28] Even though your dad's an expert, it's not going to make sense

[00:00:32] Music

[00:00:36] So she studies, she's revising some maths and so I asked her

[00:00:40] Hey, how do you know if your revision is going to work?

[00:00:44] And she looked at me and she said, well I'll find out in the exam

[00:00:48] And I laughed and I went, well that might be a bit late

[00:00:52] Music

[00:01:03] Hello and welcome to The Exam Man podcast

[00:01:09] I'm your host John Gaston and I am here as I am every week

[00:01:12] with my co-host Sophie Gaston, how are you doing Sophie?

[00:01:15] Yeah, I'm good thanks, what's the point, how are you?

[00:01:18] Yeah, I'm alright, I'm alright, we've got less than a week to go now

[00:01:24] until the kind of big public exams start

[00:01:27] I am still running speaking exams, I'm not quite sure how

[00:01:30] It feels like it's been a lifetime

[00:01:32] They feel like they started weeks, how many weeks ago?

[00:01:34] I feel like we've been talking about them for ages now

[00:01:37] But yeah, still not finished

[00:01:39] And this week I also had to run year nine exams as well

[00:01:44] Internal exams, which was a nice little treat

[00:01:47] It must have been easy

[00:01:48] Oh yeah, year nine is famous for you love doing anything like that

[00:01:51] So that was a real treat

[00:01:54] Yeah, so that often happens

[00:01:57] Is that you will end up running some internal exams

[00:02:01] kind of just before or just after the main exam season

[00:02:06] And that's kind of because the summer term gets quite squeezed

[00:02:11] So big exam period in the middle of it

[00:02:15] All the fun stuff at the end, yeah, yeah, proms, sports days

[00:02:20] Theme park trips, all that stuff

[00:02:22] So you've got quite a small window to get all the internal exams done

[00:02:25] So it won't be unusual that we're doing as mad as it may seem

[00:02:29] That exams officers are running exams kind of right up to the point

[00:02:34] Give you a little bit of practice like that

[00:02:36] Just before

[00:02:37] I mean, I guess there is a little bit of that

[00:02:39] Like, you know, it helps you to get all your kit ready

[00:02:42] and make sure you've got everything you need

[00:02:44] And it sort of gives you a little dry run

[00:02:46] But it's also like madly stressful

[00:02:48] because you're trying to do that

[00:02:49] while you're trying to get everything prepared as well

[00:02:52] and run speaking exams and do all the other stuff that you need to

[00:02:55] What do you mean by kit?

[00:02:56] I've got an image of your own pencil case or something

[00:02:59] No, so, well we actually give students each student a pencil case

[00:03:03] Oh for their exams

[00:03:04] For their exams

[00:03:05] So that's one big kit

[00:03:06] Yeah, you're one

[00:03:07] No, I don't have a pencil case at my age

[00:03:12] So is there anything like specific that you're worried about

[00:03:15] apart from running all the internal exams as well

[00:03:18] or is it just sort of generalised worry

[00:03:21] as it gets closer to the written public exams?

[00:03:23] No, well I have noticed my...

[00:03:25] I don't know whether you've noticed this so far

[00:03:27] but I have noticed my stress levels just creeping up a little bit

[00:03:29] Um, yep

[00:03:30] Yeah, so I mean, I guess a lot of it is stuff that you can't control

[00:03:38] So I obviously have quite a big workload at the moment

[00:03:43] and that is stuff that you can control

[00:03:45] and so while I'm a bit stressed about that

[00:03:47] I guess I sort of know what I've got to do from that point of view

[00:03:51] and while it feels like a lot

[00:03:53] I have done it before

[00:03:55] so I guess I have confidence that I can get it done

[00:03:57] but it's always the stuff that you can't control

[00:04:00] that sort of plays on your mind

[00:04:02] as much as you try not to allow it to

[00:04:05] So yeah, so there are a couple of specific things

[00:04:09] Can I guess one of them?

[00:04:11] Yeah, go on then, yes

[00:04:12] Is it around the potential for one of us in the house

[00:04:15] getting a sickness bug?

[00:04:16] Yeah, it might be

[00:04:17] Well, maybe not just a sickness bug

[00:04:19] but kind of illness more generally

[00:04:22] So, um, I really don't like being absent

[00:04:26] when exams are going on

[00:04:27] public exams are going on

[00:04:29] It's not happened very often to me

[00:04:31] Um, but it's not something that I want to happen

[00:04:35] It happened once, didn't it?

[00:04:37] Where our eldest was rushed into hospital

[00:04:40] and said, is that GCSE maths exam?

[00:04:42] It was, yeah

[00:04:43] It was one of the big ones

[00:04:44] It was right in the middle, I think

[00:04:46] It was like that first week

[00:04:47] back after half-term at the start of June

[00:04:49] where you get all the big maths and English exams

[00:04:52] Yeah, and our son had to go into hospital

[00:04:55] Um, and, um, yeah

[00:04:57] It meant me not being there

[00:04:58] But that was actually back at a time

[00:05:00] when I had an assistant, exams assistant

[00:05:02] which I don't anymore

[00:05:04] And so that, I think, you know

[00:05:06] like it was much more copable

[00:05:08] in that situation

[00:05:09] We have a much better developed contingency policy

[00:05:13] now just to explain

[00:05:14] every exam centre has to have a contingency policy

[00:05:18] Is that required by JCQ?

[00:05:19] Yeah, it is

[00:05:20] And it's...

[00:05:21] And for your own stress level

[00:05:23] Yeah, it covers all sorts of eventualities

[00:05:25] including now obviously what you do

[00:05:27] in the case of a global pandemic

[00:05:29] Um, but one of the things

[00:05:31] that obviously you need to cover

[00:05:32] is what happens if your exams officer is absent

[00:05:34] So there is a policy

[00:05:36] You know, there are a set of steps

[00:05:38] that we would follow

[00:05:39] if I wasn't there

[00:05:40] But, you know, schools are kind of

[00:05:42] very fluid environments

[00:05:44] so you...

[00:05:46] I don't want to be absent, you know

[00:05:49] Of course

[00:05:50] It's not right

[00:05:51] It's what your role is building up to all year, isn't it?

[00:05:53] Yeah

[00:05:54] As well as, you know

[00:05:55] And there's so much like knowledge

[00:05:56] that I have in my head

[00:05:58] There's no way you could transpose that

[00:06:00] to somebody else, you know

[00:06:02] Particularly, I imagine, for dealing with the drama

[00:06:04] it's the stuff that happens

[00:06:06] just around the exams

[00:06:07] Yeah, things can happen

[00:06:08] you know, invigilators are off sick

[00:06:10] or, you know, a kid breaks their hand

[00:06:13] or whatever, you know

[00:06:14] and it's knowing what to do in that situation

[00:06:16] Do you ever had that happen?

[00:06:18] What kids break their hand

[00:06:19] Yeah

[00:06:20] In the exam

[00:06:21] Not in the exam

[00:06:22] I think I've said this to people before

[00:06:24] Sorry, not in the exam

[00:06:25] Not in the exam, though

[00:06:26] But one of the iron laws of exams

[00:06:28] is that there's always a kid

[00:06:30] who breaks like their wrist or their hand

[00:06:32] like a couple of days

[00:06:34] before the exam starts

[00:06:35] and then you have to magic up a scribe

[00:06:37] from somewhere

[00:06:38] So it's all that stuff

[00:06:39] You want to be there

[00:06:40] because you want to be able

[00:06:41] to tackle those issues

[00:06:43] that come up

[00:06:44] and also just that

[00:06:45] I think the sense of like

[00:06:46] it's like 300

[00:06:48] in our school, you know

[00:06:49] 250, 300 kids every year

[00:06:51] they're sort of like

[00:06:52] this is so important for them

[00:06:54] Absolutely

[00:06:55] And the sense that

[00:06:56] you're not there to do your job

[00:06:58] to help them get through that process

[00:07:00] is not a nice feeling at all

[00:07:02] So yeah, it's our worry about illness

[00:07:05] We must just be washing our hands

[00:07:07] and ensure that

[00:07:08] not a virus doesn't grate our house

[00:07:10] Exactly

[00:07:11] So if not, you'll have to move into some sort of

[00:07:13] secure hotel room

[00:07:14] Oh, that would be nice

[00:07:15] I don't actually like that with me

[00:07:18] Yeah, so kind of absence

[00:07:20] is one of the things

[00:07:21] definitely worrying me

[00:07:23] One other thing is

[00:07:24] like this will be common to everyone

[00:07:26] is that the yearly

[00:07:27] ordeal of the JCQ inspection

[00:07:30] So just do it

[00:07:32] We should cover that, shouldn't we?

[00:07:34] Yeah, I think we'll do it in detail

[00:07:36] in an episode

[00:07:37] but just to quickly explain

[00:07:40] Every year the JCQ

[00:07:42] send somebody to your school

[00:07:44] during the exams

[00:07:46] to check that everything that you're doing

[00:07:49] meets the regulations

[00:07:51] and you have no idea when they're going to come

[00:07:53] Are they friendly or fierce?

[00:07:55] Well, I've always had

[00:07:57] fairly friendly inspectors

[00:08:00] I don't know if that's true of everyone

[00:08:02] But I guess maybe I've been luckier

[00:08:04] So some of them

[00:08:06] will be ex-exams officers

[00:08:08] So I'm hoping to do that one day

[00:08:10] to exact my revenge

[00:08:14] So the inspector I've had

[00:08:16] the last couple of years

[00:08:18] has been an ex-head teacher

[00:08:21] Oh, okay, that's interesting

[00:08:22] Makes sense

[00:08:23] Yeah, so she's very, very thorough

[00:08:25] but very nice as well

[00:08:29] They can come whenever

[00:08:32] you don't get any warning

[00:08:35] they'll just show up

[00:08:37] and they will come and look at

[00:08:39] everything that's going on

[00:08:41] in your centre

[00:08:43] They'll look at the exam rooms

[00:08:45] and check that everything's done properly

[00:08:47] Do you like them to come soon?

[00:08:49] or do you prefer them to come at the end

[00:08:51] when you're a little bit more relaxed

[00:08:53] getting to watch the holiday?

[00:08:55] I think the ideal for me would be

[00:08:57] about a week in probably

[00:08:59] so that you've got things off the ground

[00:09:01] and everything's running

[00:09:02] and everyone's in the rhythm of doing it

[00:09:04] but what you don't want

[00:09:06] is that every day you're like

[00:09:08] oh, I wonder if the inspector will come today

[00:09:10] and that level of stress

[00:09:12] remains throughout the whole period

[00:09:14] So, yeah

[00:09:16] I'd say about a week in is the ideal

[00:09:18] but then of course there's also

[00:09:20] the sort of unknown of

[00:09:22] the day that they come on

[00:09:24] you might just be having a bad day

[00:09:26] or you might be having a brilliant day

[00:09:28] or you just don't know

[00:09:30] and also the kind of exam that they come for

[00:09:32] I think is relevant

[00:09:33] so last year my inspector

[00:09:35] went up on the day that we had GCSE

[00:09:37] Spanish listening exams

[00:09:39] GCSE Spanish doesn't sound like a big deal

[00:09:41] but that is our biggest language

[00:09:43] and

[00:09:45] so what I had on that day was

[00:09:47] about 9 or 10 rooms

[00:09:49] all with listening exams going on

[00:09:51] which means technology going on

[00:09:53] that you have to set up first thing in the morning

[00:09:55] because you can't do it like the night before

[00:09:57] so you've got to do it

[00:09:59] It's a good time to inspect you, isn't it?

[00:10:01] Well, it's

[00:10:03] a good time to check that you can really

[00:10:05] you've got everything in order

[00:10:07] And obviously as well, as soon as the

[00:10:09] inspector turns up the invigilators

[00:10:11] will start to get word of the fact that they're there

[00:10:13] and they'll get stressed then as well

[00:10:15] so it's sort of like can be a knock on effect

[00:10:17] but we've always done fine

[00:10:19] in them but

[00:10:21] Did you get passed or fail?

[00:10:23] What happens if you fail?

[00:10:25] I've got a lot of questions we need to

[00:10:27] get to you from GCSE

[00:10:29] Again, we weren't going into a huge amount of detail

[00:10:31] I've got a little checklist of things

[00:10:33] they tick them off, you get a green tick

[00:10:35] if you've done something right

[00:10:37] What's the equivalent of having

[00:10:39] to parallel park?

[00:10:41] What's the scariest bit of the

[00:10:43] inspection?

[00:10:45] The scariest bit of the inspection

[00:10:47] I find the scariest bit of the inspection

[00:10:49] where they go at the beginning of the exam

[00:10:51] and the invigilators doing like

[00:10:53] the announcement and starting the exam off

[00:10:55] because you don't have any control over that process

[00:10:57] so unless of course

[00:10:59] they're using the JCQ

[00:11:01] invigilator announcement

[00:11:03] recorded by Sophie Gaston

[00:11:05] which case I know exactly what's going to be said

[00:11:07] but you're just hoping that your

[00:11:09] invigilators do what they've been trained to do

[00:11:11] at that point and they're not too nervous

[00:11:13] as well, I would be really nervous

[00:11:15] stood at the front of a hall of

[00:11:17] couple of hundred students

[00:11:19] with an inspector there watching me

[00:11:21] that's nerve-racking

[00:11:23] so that's probably the point where I get most stressed

[00:11:25] You're famously not very good at passing driving test

[00:11:27] John anyway, aren't you?

[00:11:29] Anyway, moving on from that

[00:11:31] What else? Is there anything else that's specifically

[00:11:33] worrying at the moment?

[00:11:35] Well I think

[00:11:37] the only other thing

[00:11:39] is to do with

[00:11:41] kind of life at home

[00:11:43] because obviously it's

[00:11:45] I'm doing really really long hours and it is a lot more

[00:11:47] stressful than in the other part

[00:11:49] of the year and obviously that's then going to have a knock-on effect

[00:11:51] on you as well

[00:11:53] isn't it?

[00:11:55] And obviously as well, parenting is like a competition

[00:11:57] isn't it?

[00:11:59] So if I'm not here and you're doing all the

[00:12:01] parenting then at some point

[00:12:03] I'm going to have to make up those points

[00:12:05] Basically the whole of the summer holidays

[00:12:07] you have to do absolutely everything is not the trade-off

[00:12:09] I should beat the trade-off

[00:12:11] That's adding some life stress as well

[00:12:13] because you know that's coming

[00:12:15] I'm going to have to do all that as well

[00:12:17] Remember during the exam period

[00:12:19] We said we were going to do something

[00:12:21] a bit different in this episode

[00:12:23] and interview someone a bit different

[00:12:25] and this is

[00:12:27] really really useful I think

[00:12:29] because it's obviously

[00:12:31] lots of exams officers going for a stressful time

[00:12:33] but of course students as well

[00:12:35] we mustn't forget them

[00:12:37] The whole reason that we're there

[00:12:39] and obviously they're

[00:12:41] experiencing very high levels of stress too

[00:12:43] so we're sort of all in this kind of bubble

[00:12:45] of like the whole thing

[00:12:47] so we're sort of all in this kind of bubble

[00:12:49] of

[00:12:51] feeling the pinch

[00:12:53] and so what we wanted to do today

[00:12:55] was talk to someone who

[00:12:57] works with

[00:12:59] students, parents

[00:13:01] teachers

[00:13:03] and lots of other people as well

[00:13:05] who are in situations where they're trying

[00:13:07] to get the most out of themselves basically

[00:13:11] and there's a lot of work going on

[00:13:13] at the moment obviously trying to

[00:13:15] prepare students, parents are doing loads

[00:13:17] teachers are doing loads

[00:13:19] we're getting ourselves prepared to run the exams

[00:13:21] as smoothly as possible

[00:13:23] and it was great to be able

[00:13:25] to talk to someone who had loads

[00:13:27] of hints and tips and ideas

[00:13:29] really practical

[00:13:31] really practical stuff

[00:13:33] to talk about how we can all get the best

[00:13:35] out of ourselves at difficult pressurised

[00:13:37] times

[00:13:39] So we're delighted to be joined by

[00:13:41] Sonda De Groot

[00:13:43] who is a major in

[00:13:45] training

[00:13:47] he's an experienced teacher, trainer

[00:13:49] lecturer and facilitator

[00:13:51] and made training for those who you don't know

[00:13:53] are leading experts

[00:13:55] in thinking, studying and revision skills

[00:13:57] and so far they've

[00:13:59] helped, I think you said it was up to half a million

[00:14:01] learners since 2010

[00:14:03] and we were

[00:14:05] just really excited to hear about the brilliant

[00:14:07] work that they've been doing in schools during that

[00:14:09] period

[00:14:11] and we also specifically talked to him about any tips

[00:14:13] that he's got

[00:14:15] for students and families

[00:14:17] about how to navigate this period

[00:14:19] but what we came away with

[00:14:21] was that we got loads out of it too

[00:14:23] and tips to just approach

[00:14:25] stressful periods at work

[00:14:27] or if you've got something

[00:14:29] to tackle head on

[00:14:31] yeah so I hope you really enjoy it

[00:14:37] So what would be really great

[00:14:41] is to, if you could tell us a little bit about your background

[00:14:43] and how you got into the world

[00:14:45] of revision and training

[00:14:47] before we ask you about made

[00:14:49] a little bit more about you

[00:14:51] Yeah so my name is Sonda De Groot

[00:14:53] in Dutch that would be Sonder De Groot

[00:14:55] We did wonder

[00:14:57] about how to pronounce your name

[00:14:59] and you'll see that we just avoided doing it

[00:15:01] and allowed you to do it instead

[00:15:03] Well, well you put the spotlight

[00:15:05] on yourself now so let's do it

[00:15:07] Here we go, Sonder De Groot

[00:15:09] Sonder De Groot

[00:15:11] Perfect, there you go

[00:15:13] honorary Dutchman right there

[00:15:15] Thank you, thank you

[00:15:17] So going up in a Dutch family

[00:15:19] here in the UK

[00:15:21] as a boy

[00:15:23] I wouldn't say that I was

[00:15:25] the best reviser

[00:15:27] but I had many friends

[00:15:29] who were to varying degrees

[00:15:31] were pretty good at it

[00:15:33] so I think from

[00:15:35] probably kind of, yeah

[00:15:37] in year 11 I really became the magpie

[00:15:39] looking at how other people did it

[00:15:41] and testing those ideas

[00:15:43] out for myself

[00:15:45] and some of them worked really well

[00:15:49] and I guess as the years gone on

[00:15:51] that I've

[00:15:53] learned more and more ways

[00:15:55] of how to focus

[00:15:57] how to get the best out of myself

[00:15:59] when I'm working

[00:16:01] studying

[00:16:03] and all the strategies that we share

[00:16:05] with students, you know

[00:16:07] I apply myself

[00:16:13] I became really good at drawing

[00:16:15] so I became a kind of cartoonist

[00:16:17] a fashion illustrator, designer

[00:16:19] and

[00:16:21] after a PGC

[00:16:23] to become an art teacher

[00:16:25] I became really interested in

[00:16:27] pedagogy, you know the art

[00:16:29] and science of teaching

[00:16:31] and delivering really good

[00:16:33] classes

[00:16:35] so I taught for a while, lectured for a while

[00:16:37] and then I had the opportunity

[00:16:39] of working for a training company

[00:16:43] and these were a set of people

[00:16:45] who delivered

[00:16:47] personal development strategies

[00:16:49] but very much to, let's call them

[00:16:51] sales teams

[00:16:53] so the idea was

[00:16:55] here's some great personal development thinking skills

[00:16:57] as long as you want a Porsche

[00:16:59] as long as you're going to drive out your sales figures

[00:17:01] and so I thought that was quite curious

[00:17:03] but underlying that

[00:17:05] were some really powerful ideas

[00:17:09] and off the back of those ideas

[00:17:11] I started

[00:17:13] I had the opportunity

[00:17:15] of working with a couple of organizations

[00:17:17] going back into schools

[00:17:19] delivering thinking skills

[00:17:21] and then

[00:17:23] that sweet spot came together

[00:17:25] of working with students

[00:17:27] but not within a specific subject

[00:17:29] but within helping them

[00:17:31] to think

[00:17:33] and really think for themselves

[00:17:35] and then I've become really really passionate

[00:17:37] and interested

[00:17:39] in helping students to do so

[00:17:41] so now we work with students

[00:17:43] but also with teachers

[00:17:45] with parents

[00:17:47] work with a handful of sports people

[00:17:49] and business people

[00:17:51] and I guess it's to help them reflect

[00:17:53] on the way that they're thinking

[00:17:55] and then to think

[00:17:57] thinking

[00:17:59] we can call them thinking skills

[00:18:01] but we could also call them like processes

[00:18:03] strategies

[00:18:05] to use to attack

[00:18:07] problems

[00:18:09] to attack situations

[00:18:11] that we get stuck in perhaps

[00:18:13] and yeah and it's gone

[00:18:15] from strength to strength

[00:18:21] I think that the

[00:18:23] thinking skills that we share

[00:18:25] are really applicable to everybody

[00:18:27] it's basically about how

[00:18:29] we pitch it

[00:18:31] so for those students who are already really

[00:18:33] focused then we can

[00:18:35] talk about extending their learning

[00:18:37] and taking

[00:18:39] validating the strategies

[00:18:41] that they already use

[00:18:43] and giving them hints and tips on how

[00:18:45] to make them even more effective

[00:18:47] for those perhaps

[00:18:49] for whom they haven't even started Revision

[00:18:51] we need to have a bit of a breakthrough

[00:18:53] moment

[00:18:55] so our workshops use

[00:18:57] the first

[00:18:59] let's say 5 to 10 minutes need to be

[00:19:01] a moment where the student goes

[00:19:03] okay I'm not just

[00:19:05] understanding what you're saying

[00:19:07] but oh my gosh this stuff actually works

[00:19:09] yeah I can

[00:19:11] see it in this session and I can notice it

[00:19:13] in my head that

[00:19:15] this isn't just information

[00:19:17] but this is I'm experiencing it

[00:19:19] so is that something that you do at the beginning of this session

[00:19:21] it's almost like a proof of concept to the student

[00:19:23] like you'll do

[00:19:25] totally

[00:19:27] and that's whether it's in a personal development workshop

[00:19:29] or in a workshop

[00:19:31] based on independent

[00:19:33] or autonomous learning

[00:19:35] I think people, students

[00:19:37] and everybody needs to have that moment

[00:19:39] that penny drop moment of

[00:19:41] okay I can see this actually works

[00:19:43] yeah

[00:19:45] so we have what we call

[00:19:47] the made model

[00:19:49] like a flow model that goes through each workshop

[00:19:51] where we

[00:19:53] explain a strategy

[00:19:55] we give them the psychology and the history

[00:19:57] behind it, where it's come from

[00:19:59] we demonstrate it

[00:20:01] then the students practice it

[00:20:03] and see really

[00:20:05] okay I can see this working

[00:20:07] and then they discuss in groups of

[00:20:09] how are they going to apply it

[00:20:11] in which kind of subjects might they think it's useful

[00:20:13] and how can they tailor it

[00:20:15] to their own

[00:20:17] methodology

[00:20:25] could you give us an example of

[00:20:27] some of those strategies

[00:20:29] okay so let's go for

[00:20:31] well in a minute I'll go for some

[00:20:33] as you say those hints and tips

[00:20:35] that students can use

[00:20:37] but one of the classic ones

[00:20:39] and I think a slightly misunderstood one

[00:20:41] is what's known as the

[00:20:43] memory palace or the method of loci

[00:20:45] this is the oldest memory technique

[00:20:47] in the book

[00:20:49] put forward by

[00:20:51] Simonides of Thessaly

[00:20:53] 2,500 years ago

[00:20:55] and the idea is that they hook

[00:20:57] pieces of information

[00:20:59] or powerful memory triggers

[00:21:01] around a room

[00:21:03] or along a journey

[00:21:05] and the way that it's

[00:21:07] usually taught

[00:21:09] is a bit like a trick

[00:21:11] and so you might

[00:21:13] learn how to memorize a pack of cards

[00:21:15] by locking them around a room

[00:21:17] now if you deliver that to a student they'll go

[00:21:19] well okay but I don't need a

[00:21:21] memorize a pack of cards thanks

[00:21:23] and it's not quite landing with me

[00:21:25] so we need to give the students

[00:21:27] the scope to personalize it

[00:21:29] yep so I have two daughters

[00:21:31] one 18 about to take

[00:21:33] array levels, one 16

[00:21:35] about to take GCSE

[00:21:37] oh wow stressful time

[00:21:39] right in the middle of it

[00:21:41] I explain this idea to my

[00:21:43] 18 year old as she was approaching

[00:21:45] mock exams for GCSEs

[00:21:47] and I explain it and she said

[00:21:49] yeah okay dad see what you mean

[00:21:51] but nah not for me

[00:21:53] classic teenager

[00:21:55] you even know your dad's an expert

[00:21:57] and I'm not going to listen to it

[00:21:59] but then a week later I noticed

[00:22:01] there were these post-it notes

[00:22:03] throughout the house

[00:22:05] and I was like what's going on here

[00:22:07] and a few words on the front

[00:22:09] I took the idea

[00:22:11] that you explained to me dad

[00:22:13] but I've tweaked it

[00:22:15] to work for me so she wanted to

[00:22:17] memorize all the quotes from Macbeth

[00:22:19] she wrote half a quote on the front

[00:22:21] half a quote on the back

[00:22:23] and she placed them on a journey through the house

[00:22:25] one above a light switch in her room

[00:22:27] on the back of the bedroom door

[00:22:29] in the hallway, back of the bathroom door

[00:22:31] above the mirror

[00:22:33] and she said that every day

[00:22:35] she would walk past these things

[00:22:37] and see if she could remember the half on the back

[00:22:39] and then she said in the mock exam

[00:22:41] she realized that

[00:22:43] actually she only needed to remember one thing

[00:22:45] and that was where we lived

[00:22:47] right

[00:22:49] and she knows that at the back of her hand

[00:22:51] so she said she could go through the house

[00:22:53] and they all came off

[00:22:55] and I thought wow fantastic

[00:22:57] and now I explain the strategy

[00:22:59] to students that I work with

[00:23:01] in kind of two or three different ways

[00:23:03] now so you could use it like this

[00:23:05] this is how my daughter has applied it

[00:23:07] and as I do that I see the students go

[00:23:09] okay, okay now if your daughter

[00:23:11] has used it and she's changed it

[00:23:13] then that means

[00:23:15] I can change things

[00:23:17] and

[00:23:19] this bald guy with a beard

[00:23:21] what does he know but maybe

[00:23:23] if the students use it to great effect

[00:23:25] or maybe I can use it too

[00:23:27] that's such a powerful example

[00:23:29] from your daughter as well

[00:23:31] I mean I think that you sort of intuitively

[00:23:33] feel that that would work as well

[00:23:35] yeah

[00:23:37] in terms of

[00:23:39] so that's obviously a memory strategy

[00:23:41] what do you guys do

[00:23:43] stuff in relation to

[00:23:45] kind of more sort of like

[00:23:47] mental preparation maybe not skills

[00:23:49] in terms of skills in terms of learning

[00:23:51] but in terms of being

[00:23:53] prepared mentally to do

[00:23:55] to take on exams

[00:23:57] and things like that so like

[00:23:59] mental resilience or

[00:24:01] do you talk about that at all

[00:24:03] we do we do and

[00:24:05] I think

[00:24:07] a big part of resilience

[00:24:09] is confidence

[00:24:11] in

[00:24:13] being able to get it wrong

[00:24:15] identify

[00:24:17] what went wrong or the gaps in the knowledge

[00:24:19] and knowing that

[00:24:21] we can make progress

[00:24:23] so I'm going to give you an example

[00:24:25] for my other daughter

[00:24:27] so my 16 year old

[00:24:29] three different from her older sister

[00:24:31] perhaps because my eldest

[00:24:33] daughter was quite studious

[00:24:35] my youngest one thought yeah well see you later

[00:24:37] I'm not going to do it like her

[00:24:39] classic right so

[00:24:41] few weeks ago

[00:24:43] she studies at the kitchen table

[00:24:45] rather than in a room

[00:24:47] because she knows that managing

[00:24:49] distractions isn't her strong point

[00:24:51] so she studies at the kitchen table where

[00:24:53] she's being monitored by myself

[00:24:55] and my wife so

[00:24:57] she studies she's revising some maths

[00:24:59] and so I asked her hey

[00:25:01] how do you know if your revision is going to

[00:25:03] work

[00:25:05] and she looked at me she said

[00:25:07] well I'll find out in the exam

[00:25:09] and I laughed

[00:25:11] well that might be a bit late

[00:25:13] and I said what could you do

[00:25:15] and she said

[00:25:17] maybe I'll need to do a past exam paper

[00:25:19] and I could tell in her voice

[00:25:21] she didn't want to do it

[00:25:23] now why didn't she want to do it

[00:25:25] she didn't want to see the mark

[00:25:27] that she was going to get

[00:25:29] so in the end she did a past exam paper

[00:25:31] 32%

[00:25:33] not where she wanted to be

[00:25:35] but in that moment she realised

[00:25:37] now I know the stuff I do know

[00:25:39] now I can figure out

[00:25:41] the stuff I don't know

[00:25:43] and I can focus on the stuff I don't know

[00:25:45] and now she's got into a process of

[00:25:47] doing a past exam paper each week

[00:25:49] and she's seeing her grade go up

[00:25:51] yeah yeah

[00:25:53] and she herself has given her

[00:25:55] that resilience to stop

[00:25:57] pushing and to start progressing

[00:25:59] but the idea of that

[00:26:01] we've got to see the challenges

[00:26:03] to be able to overcome them

[00:26:05] so I think that kind of thing

[00:26:07] you know resilience isn't going to come out of

[00:26:09] yeah out the sky

[00:26:11] it's not going to come out of the sky

[00:26:13] so it's that idea of small

[00:26:15] incremental improvement

[00:26:17] and pushing through

[00:26:19] yeah amazing

[00:26:21] and that's how you're having to

[00:26:23] live your own practice at the moment

[00:26:25] at home as well

[00:26:27] fascinating

[00:26:29] and if you can convert your daughters

[00:26:31] into working on these strategies

[00:26:33] if you can convince your own children

[00:26:35] you should be able to convince

[00:26:37] any other children shouldn't you really

[00:26:39] because they're sort of like the most resistant

[00:26:41] to your advice probably

[00:26:43] and a key one for parents

[00:26:45] is acknowledging that

[00:26:47] every student is different

[00:26:49] and every child's children are going to be different

[00:26:51] what works for one child

[00:26:53] from a parenting perspective

[00:26:55] is not going to work for another

[00:26:57] and each child

[00:26:59] needs to be parented differently

[00:27:01] my eldest one was very happy to sit down

[00:27:03] and discuss things with me

[00:27:05] my youngest one is yeah what do you know dad

[00:27:07] and she is picking

[00:27:09] bits up but she won't say that

[00:27:11] for me

[00:27:13] so

[00:27:19] as a parent then

[00:27:21] what do you think is

[00:27:23] obviously you've got a lot of expertise

[00:27:25] underlying the different approaches

[00:27:27] you might take with your children

[00:27:29] so you have knowledge underlying it

[00:27:31] as a parent

[00:27:33] is it just a case of trial and error

[00:27:35] is it just a case of testing

[00:27:37] what might the different strategies that might work

[00:27:39] with your kids and seeing what comes out

[00:27:41] or is there a way of hacking that

[00:27:43] in the next couple of weeks before GCSE

[00:27:45] and time's up

[00:27:47] I think the big one is

[00:27:49] nudging

[00:27:51] the young people

[00:27:53] to try and move from a passive

[00:27:55] to an active approach

[00:27:57] revision isn't going to be

[00:27:59] something that gets done to you

[00:28:01] it's something that we have to get done

[00:28:05] sitting down and talking to them about revision

[00:28:09] and trying steering away perhaps

[00:28:11] from grades

[00:28:13] and what do they need to hear

[00:28:15] so what are you revising at the moment

[00:28:17] oh so you're revising geography

[00:28:19] so tell me a little bit about geography

[00:28:21] I guess it's that showing interest

[00:28:23] interested in the content

[00:28:27] and yeah I love it

[00:28:29] when my daughters teach me

[00:28:31] so they explain to me what they've learnt

[00:28:33] they feel proud

[00:28:35] and I really show interest

[00:28:37] in what they're studying

[00:28:39] and I ask them to see that

[00:28:41] this stuff they're learning at school is valid

[00:28:43] it's going to be useful

[00:28:45] and that gives that confidence doesn't it

[00:28:47] when you can explain something

[00:28:49] confidentially to someone else

[00:28:51] you're the expert

[00:28:53] that's really interesting

[00:28:55] one thing that I've noticed is that

[00:28:57] obviously during year 11

[00:28:59] we run lots of revision sessions after school

[00:29:01] and it's really interesting

[00:29:03] what you said about active and passive

[00:29:05] because I reckon there's a bit

[00:29:07] of a divide here in the sense that

[00:29:09] for some kids they're really beneficial

[00:29:11] and for some kids I feel like

[00:29:13] they're almost counterproductive

[00:29:15] because what happens is

[00:29:17] kids who already understand the idea of being an active

[00:29:19] learner

[00:29:21] and to do active revision will go to those sessions

[00:29:23] and get a huge amount out of them

[00:29:25] and they'll have a teacher there

[00:29:27] to kind of guide

[00:29:29] and assist where they need it

[00:29:31] but I think for some students

[00:29:33] they'll go to those sessions

[00:29:35] and sit there quite passively

[00:29:37] but then be like I've done my bit

[00:29:39] it's done

[00:29:41] I turned up there, ergo the revision bit is done

[00:29:43] and it's like no you haven't taken

[00:29:45] the kind of

[00:29:47] the active ownership

[00:29:49] of it that you need to

[00:29:51] to be able to succeed

[00:29:53] I think it's a really important point

[00:29:55] and many of the schools

[00:29:57] that I work with are moving

[00:29:59] to a model of compulsory

[00:30:01] revision sessions after school

[00:30:03] so you can make someone go to a session

[00:30:05] but can you make them listen

[00:30:07] and apply themselves

[00:30:09] and so they might be

[00:30:11] freeriding that session

[00:30:13] and not really taking part

[00:30:15] they might even be distracting some of the others

[00:30:17] who want to take part

[00:30:19] and it's almost worse because by attending

[00:30:21] they've almost convinced themselves

[00:30:23] that they're doing the revision

[00:30:25] when in fact, do you know what I mean

[00:30:27] so it's almost worse than sitting there

[00:30:29] being like oh god I haven't done any revision

[00:30:31] oh I went to the session

[00:30:33] so I've done it

[00:30:35] and it's handing over

[00:30:37] that responsibility to the teacher

[00:30:39] I've done the revision sessions

[00:30:41] how come I haven't got a good mark

[00:30:43] because surely you were doing the revision

[00:30:45] for me

[00:30:51] can we be really really cheeky

[00:30:56] just get a few of those tips

[00:30:58] that you're going to give to students tomorrow

[00:31:00] but any students listening to this

[00:31:02] yeah yeah so

[00:31:04] number one is really basic

[00:31:06] it's removed distractions

[00:31:08] we're all kind of

[00:31:10] half human, half phone

[00:31:12] these days but in those

[00:31:14] blocks of focus

[00:31:16] put the phone on silent and put it somewhere

[00:31:18] you can't see it

[00:31:20] so whether that's behind the screen of the laptop

[00:31:22] or whether that's behind you

[00:31:24] on the bed there's somewhere that you actually

[00:31:26] it's out of sight

[00:31:28] and the next one is

[00:31:30] when reading

[00:31:32] read with a pen in your hand

[00:31:34] yeah and that shifts

[00:31:36] the focus from

[00:31:38] what's all this to

[00:31:40] what do I want from this

[00:31:42] just the act of having a pen

[00:31:44] piece of paper

[00:31:46] with reading it's great

[00:31:48] and then one of the models that we share

[00:31:50] is do some reading

[00:31:52] maybe 15-20 minutes

[00:31:54] take a little break

[00:31:56] and then we'll go to the transforming process

[00:31:58] of either make a flashcard

[00:32:00] or summarize

[00:32:02] or write up a few key points

[00:32:04] or maybe structure an essay plan

[00:32:06] that's when we personalize the information

[00:32:08] we filter it through our understanding

[00:32:10] we transform it into something new

[00:32:12] and then finally to test yourself

[00:32:14] yep so to

[00:32:16] to try and show

[00:32:18] did the revision work

[00:32:20] yeah so

[00:32:22] read, transform

[00:32:24] call it

[00:32:26] fab that all makes good sense to me

[00:32:28] it's interesting thinking about yourself

[00:32:30] and like you know like

[00:32:32] when you've been effective you've done those things

[00:32:34] you haven't realized you're doing them

[00:32:36] whether that's learning lines in a play

[00:32:38] whether that's preparing for a presentation

[00:32:40] we as

[00:32:42] professionals as teachers

[00:32:44] educators we go through this

[00:32:46] process ourselves

[00:32:48] music

[00:32:52] Sandra could you talk to us

[00:32:54] just a little bit about marginal gains

[00:32:56] and explain

[00:32:58] what those are

[00:33:00] and how it made

[00:33:02] do you sort of feel about that concept

[00:33:04] and its usefulness

[00:33:06] wonderful so yeah

[00:33:08] marginal gains

[00:33:10] those of you who've heard about it before

[00:33:12] have probably heard of the work of

[00:33:14] Dave Brailsford and the Olympic cycling team

[00:33:16] and how that concept has

[00:33:18] you know gone right through the sporting

[00:33:20] arena into business into education as well

[00:33:22] and the idea of marginal gains is

[00:33:24] small incremental improvements

[00:33:26] so rather than trying to make a

[00:33:28] really big shift in one go

[00:33:30] where we often set ourselves up for failure

[00:33:32] it's about

[00:33:34] small changes

[00:33:36] small things

[00:33:38] and those small things

[00:33:40] in time create

[00:33:42] a behavioral shift

[00:33:44] and a performance shift

[00:33:46] so with students

[00:33:48] we talk about marginal gains in relation

[00:33:50] to their routines

[00:33:52] because it may be

[00:33:54] simplistic

[00:33:56] but easy to think of the only thing

[00:33:58] that affects my grades

[00:34:00] is how much work I do

[00:34:02] but actually it's

[00:34:04] what time we go to bed

[00:34:06] it's having

[00:34:08] breakfast in the morning

[00:34:10] our relationship with teachers

[00:34:12] our relationship with our parents

[00:34:14] it's

[00:34:16] all those little things on the periphery

[00:34:18] that can really make an impact

[00:34:20] so when we deliver

[00:34:22] marginal gains with students we get them to look at

[00:34:24] your diet

[00:34:26] and exercise

[00:34:28] prioritising their work

[00:34:30] and so yeah making those

[00:34:32] small shifts

[00:34:34] is it difficult to convince

[00:34:36] maybe not just young people but people in general

[00:34:38] but making those

[00:34:40] to make those small changes

[00:34:42] and for them to understand

[00:34:44] that in the end it might have a big pay off

[00:34:46] is it hard to convince people of that

[00:34:50] what I've found is no

[00:34:52] I think if we use

[00:34:54] a really powerful

[00:34:56] analogy

[00:34:58] or

[00:35:00] story up front

[00:35:02] of how others have used it

[00:35:04] and then get students to go through

[00:35:06] the

[00:35:08] a paradigm shift

[00:35:10] of looking at small changes

[00:35:12] that they've made in the past

[00:35:14] and noticing

[00:35:16] the performance increase that those had

[00:35:20] most students go

[00:35:22] yeah okay I see this

[00:35:24] I see this. You've done stages achievable aren't they

[00:35:26] as well which is incredibly

[00:35:28] motivated

[00:35:30] when you realise that you can achieve

[00:35:32] a small goal

[00:35:34] and they build up and they snowball

[00:35:36] once we've done one small

[00:35:38] thing we go okay this is pretty easy

[00:35:40] well then we can do another one

[00:35:42] and another one and not only our confidence

[00:35:44] builds but our

[00:35:46] success begins to snowball

[00:35:48] so yeah I think

[00:35:50] when I talk to students about

[00:35:52] slicing these things down really fine

[00:35:54] and making your first few steps

[00:35:56] literally guaranteed to succeed

[00:35:58] going to bed

[00:36:00] 10 minutes earlier

[00:36:02] what's that? Everybody could do

[00:36:04] tonight 20 minutes of revision

[00:36:06] you can do 20 minutes of revision

[00:36:08] of course I can do 20 minutes

[00:36:10] 20 minutes becomes 40

[00:36:12] becomes an hour

[00:36:14] and then we see

[00:36:16] that behavioural change

[00:36:18] fascinating

[00:36:20] thank you so much

[00:36:22] that has been genuinely fascinating

[00:36:24] it's been so interesting to hear it

[00:36:26] both from the perspective of your

[00:36:28] job and your work but also from your family

[00:36:30] as well as a parent

[00:36:32] I'm sure loads of people will get

[00:36:34] tons of useful

[00:36:36] stuff out of that wonderful

[00:36:38] yeah it's been a real pleasure talking to you

[00:36:40] so thank you so much

[00:36:42] John Sophie it's been a delight

[00:36:44] to be with you today so thank you

[00:36:46] and how can schools get in touch with you

[00:36:48] if they want to know a little bit more about made

[00:36:50] that's a great one

[00:36:52] so feel free to have a look at the website

[00:36:54] we are www.made

[00:36:56] that's m-a-d-e

[00:36:58] www.training.com

[00:37:00] excellent fabulous

[00:37:02] thanks so much for your time and good luck

[00:37:04] with the exam season with your daughters

[00:37:06] thank you Sophie

[00:37:08] music

[00:37:10] music

[00:37:12] it was interesting that

[00:37:14] interview kind of went in directions

[00:37:16] that I didn't necessarily expect it

[00:37:18] to and I felt like

[00:37:20] I ended up getting way more out

[00:37:22] of that than I anticipated

[00:37:24] so I was expecting something that would

[00:37:26] just really be focused on students

[00:37:28] and revision techniques

[00:37:30] and actually it was a whole

[00:37:32] range of ideas

[00:37:34] and strategies and thoughts

[00:37:36] for all of us really on how to get

[00:37:38] the most out of our

[00:37:40] performance and also I think

[00:37:42] in the process of that

[00:37:44] reduce stress levels as well

[00:37:46] which is kind of pertinent

[00:37:48] to what we were talking about earlier

[00:37:50] and I think the other thing that I really

[00:37:52] drew from it that we've talked about before

[00:37:54] on the podcast

[00:37:56] was this thing about

[00:37:58] practice

[00:38:00] so he talked a bit about his daughter

[00:38:02] didn't he doing practice

[00:38:04] and practice and practice and then she was able

[00:38:06] to see both what she was

[00:38:08] good at, what she wasn't good at

[00:38:10] and she was able to see her progress

[00:38:12] as well by repetitive

[00:38:14] practice and that's

[00:38:16] something that we sort of talked about in our

[00:38:18] interview with Marina before

[00:38:20] and it's something that

[00:38:22] we talked about as well in relation to

[00:38:24] exams screen before hadn't we because

[00:38:26] we talked about

[00:38:28] giving that, giving our tool

[00:38:30] to students which we've done this year

[00:38:32] we've given them the ability

[00:38:34] to access exams screen for free

[00:38:36] in order that they can do

[00:38:38] the most authentic kind of practice

[00:38:40] possible so

[00:38:42] Yeah, set in the conditions that they're going to be, so

[00:38:44] almost I think that's one thing

[00:38:46] that I might have liked to have added to

[00:38:48] what Sonda said was that

[00:38:50] as well as doing the practice is

[00:38:52] to try and replicate the environment

[00:38:54] as much as possible

[00:38:56] so that when you come to

[00:38:58] actually do the actual performance

[00:39:00] you know, you're used to

[00:39:02] that

[00:39:04] the variables involved and used to the

[00:39:06] kind of environment that you're going to do it in

[00:39:08] I used to, I don't know if I should admit this

[00:39:10] this is really embarrassing, I've not even told you

[00:39:12] that I sometimes used to

[00:39:14] put my school uniform

[00:39:16] back on to revive

[00:39:18] it's that embarrassing, isn't it?

[00:39:20] That is pretty embarrassing

[00:39:22] Also

[00:39:24] did you have to wear your uniform to do your exams?

[00:39:26] Yeah

[00:39:28] Did you not?

[00:39:30] I think I had to do what

[00:39:32] we do at the school now

[00:39:34] which is that you wear it for the first couple of weeks

[00:39:36] and then after the half term

[00:39:38] you don't have to wear it

[00:39:40] No, I had to wear, shout out to

[00:39:42] Brinterian Comprehensive School

[00:39:44] in Bridgendia

[00:39:46] who used to make, as they don't wear them anymore

[00:39:48] really, really lovely

[00:39:50] green tunics

[00:39:52] but yeah we had to

[00:39:54] no, we absolutely had to wear them to exams

[00:39:56] but I used to help it, I used to have me revised

[00:39:58] I know that sounds ridiculous and it does sound

[00:40:00] ridiculous

[00:40:02] but I do see that

[00:40:04] I think that the more

[00:40:06] that you can replicate

[00:40:08] the actual

[00:40:10] scenario

[00:40:12] the better your practice and rehearsal is going to be

[00:40:14] so yeah

[00:40:16] Don't do I, it was embarrassing

[00:40:22] Thank you so much for listening to the exam man

[00:40:24] podcast, we really, really appreciate your support

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