Exams and metacognition

[00:00:15] So Sophie's off doing all sorts of exciting Christmas related things this week so you're stuck with me I'm afraid holding the fort.

[00:00:23] So just to let you know that this is going to be our penultimate episode of season two.

[00:00:29] We're going to have a festive little treat next week and then after that we're going to be taking a short break and we'll be back in 2025 for season three.

[00:00:38] And we've already got some absolutely amazing fantastic guests lined up for that.

[00:00:42] So this is going to be our final interview of the year and this week we're talking to Nathan Burns.

[00:00:49] Nathan is a former maths teacher who has now moved into the field of metacognition.

[00:00:56] He actually goes by the moniker of Mr. Metacognition.

[00:01:00] So we're going to find out today all about what metacognition is and this is kind of part of something that we've been trying to do

[00:01:06] as well as all of our episodes talking about the running of exams and talking about policy around exams.

[00:01:11] We also wanted to look at how schools can help students and how students can prepare better for taking their exams.

[00:01:19] So along with the episode that we did previously with Sandra DeGroote from MAID this sort of sits in with that series.

[00:01:26] So Nathan's going to talk to us all about what metacognition is and how it can help students to really develop their learning

[00:01:32] and ultimately to help them through the process of revising and preparing for exams.

[00:01:37] Nathan has written two very well received books on metacognition, one called Inspiring Deep Learning and the other called Teaching Hacks.

[00:01:45] And he now leads high quality professional development working within schools across the UK to deliver training on metacognition

[00:01:53] alongside efforts with Teach First and Ambition Institute to train up the next generation of teachers.

[00:01:59] He's got lots of really fascinating insights, some great tips as well for schools and for students.

[00:02:06] So please enjoy.

[00:02:14] So Nathan, could you start by giving us your definition of metacognition?

[00:02:18] So I think the reason that metacognition is so hard to define and there's I think not necessarily disagreement

[00:02:26] but confusion within education as to exactly what it means.

[00:02:29] And I think that's because there's roughly about 150 years worth of research around metacognition

[00:02:34] and in the realm of education there's about 50 years worth of definition.

[00:02:38] And normally when there's sort of research there's kind of like one and a half thousand research papers

[00:02:43] that teachers and researchers typically look at, of which lots of different theorists use lots of different definitions

[00:02:50] which means we don't have one precise definition, which I think is why confusion sometimes reigns

[00:02:56] with exactly what metacognition means.

[00:02:59] Now I can't tell you that I've read those one and a half thousand papers

[00:03:03] that were in like typical circulation.

[00:03:05] I've read a good, good chunk of papers on metacognition well into three figures now.

[00:03:10] There's one definition that jumps out at me.

[00:03:13] Whenever anyone says, right, what is metacognition?

[00:03:15] I always go back to this one and it's from John Flavelle.

[00:03:18] It's from the 70s so it's sort of one of the earlier definitions we had

[00:03:22] when metacognition started to get related into sort of teaching and classrooms.

[00:03:26] And I'll butcher the quote slightly here, but the quote from Flavelle goes something along the lines of

[00:03:33] metacognition is if I realise that I'm having more trouble learning A than B

[00:03:37] if I think that I should double check C before accepting it as fact.

[00:03:42] So what Flavelle's really getting at in that definition is metacognition is this idea of knowing,

[00:03:47] of ourselves knowing, oh I'm finding this a little bit more difficult,

[00:03:50] like maybe some students aren't finding it too hard, but I'm finding this difficult.

[00:03:54] Why am I struggling with that?

[00:03:55] Why is that question, you know, particularly tricky for me?

[00:03:58] Why am I struggling using this strategy?

[00:04:01] Or, you know, why am I struggling in this topic?

[00:04:03] Or that idea of actually, that answer doesn't look right.

[00:04:07] Like I've done, you know, ten of these in lesson before

[00:04:10] and now I'm doing this in my mock paper, whatever it might be.

[00:04:12] Actually this doesn't look right.

[00:04:13] I feel like I need to go back and check, you know, what I've done.

[00:04:18] And almost like that spidey sense of going, oh this doesn't quite feel right

[00:04:22] because of questions I've done before, because of key words I know,

[00:04:26] because of key facts I know, whatever it might be.

[00:04:28] Little triggers that make you go, oh this isn't quite right.

[00:04:33] Now a few years ago when I wrote my first book on metacognition,

[00:04:36] obviously I was reading all of these papers and bringing together all of these definitions

[00:04:39] and I thought, oh there just aren't enough definitions out there in the world

[00:04:42] so let me throw in another one.

[00:04:44] So I made my own definition.

[00:04:47] I'll tell you what, I'll go with that one.

[00:04:48] Yeah, I'll butcher this one as well.

[00:04:51] But I like to think, so my definition was kind of like

[00:04:54] metacognition is the little voice inside your head

[00:04:56] that is constantly evaluating and reflecting on everything that you're doing.

[00:05:00] So it doesn't have to be academic,

[00:05:03] but it's kind of like every task that we do,

[00:05:06] we're constantly evaluating, you know, how did that go?

[00:05:09] Could I have done it better?

[00:05:10] Oh next time I'll do it like this.

[00:05:11] Could be a simple thing like cooking dinner.

[00:05:13] You know, if you try a recipe for the very first time and you're like,

[00:05:15] oh that went well, you know, this fried up nicely, that went well,

[00:05:18] but actually I've just added in, you know, too much of this herb or too much of this spice

[00:05:21] and actually it's next time I'm not going to do that.

[00:05:24] We're being reflective, right?

[00:05:25] We're thinking, oh, next time I'm going to do this differently

[00:05:29] to get a superior end product.

[00:05:32] And I guess if we take a step back and really delve into what that word metacognition means,

[00:05:37] if we think about cognition, that's all the knowledge that we have,

[00:05:40] that's all the skills that we have, the ability to do stuff.

[00:05:43] So the ability to, you know, chop chicken and throw it into a frying pan,

[00:05:46] or the ability to, you know, solve an algebra question.

[00:05:49] The meta is basically the analysis.

[00:05:51] It's kind of like the zoomed out picture of, well, how is that going?

[00:05:54] How can I do it better?

[00:05:56] What do I need to be focusing on?

[00:05:58] What are my strengths?

[00:05:59] What are my areas for improvement?

[00:06:00] What do I need help with?

[00:06:01] So all of those sort of step back overview thoughts that we have.

[00:06:05] And obviously we don't do it all the time, right?

[00:06:07] It's not like we critically evaluate everything that we do.

[00:06:10] Sometimes we just go, oh, whatever, I'm just getting on with it.

[00:06:12] But sometimes, and a lot of the time, professionally or personally,

[00:06:15] we sort of take a step back and we go, I could have done that in this way.

[00:06:18] I could, even just conversations we have, you know, if we, if we're,

[00:06:22] I know with my two little ones, sometimes you're like,

[00:06:24] oh, I shouldn't have maybe phrased it like that.

[00:06:26] Or maybe as a little harsh, or, you know, they're tired.

[00:06:28] And we just step back and we think, actually,

[00:06:30] I could have gone about that in a different way.

[00:06:32] Next time I'll, I'll do it like this.

[00:06:34] Or, oh, I shouldn't have phrased that email in that way.

[00:06:36] This person might interpret it like this.

[00:06:38] It wasn't too clear.

[00:06:39] Next time I'll, I'll double check it before I send it.

[00:06:41] So metacognition is all of those things that zoomed out analysis of,

[00:06:45] of what we're doing and sort of how we can, how we can get better really.

[00:06:49] That's brilliant.

[00:06:50] So where my brain has gone straight away is to thinking about,

[00:06:55] like, we, we all know people who are,

[00:06:57] who sort of don't really self-reflect on very much that they do.

[00:07:01] Yeah.

[00:07:02] And we also know people who really, really ruminate on everything.

[00:07:06] Almost, you know.

[00:07:07] Yeah.

[00:07:08] I mean, almost sort of overthink to the point of anxiety.

[00:07:11] Is there like a sweet spot within metacognition,

[00:07:14] like a right way of, or like a way of doing it that provides the right balance?

[00:07:20] Obviously, because it's really easy just to constantly think, you know,

[00:07:23] I could have done this, I could have done that, that's the strength, that's the strength.

[00:07:25] And sometimes we just need to get on with it, right?

[00:07:27] We need to get on to the next task or whatever.

[00:07:29] I think from a school's perspective and student sort of perspective,

[00:07:34] I often come back to the work of Perkins.

[00:07:36] So this is work that's, yeah, sort of 35 years old now.

[00:07:39] And Perkins did some work early 90s and said,

[00:07:44] metacognition can sort of be split into four areas in effect or four levels.

[00:07:49] Because what we don't have, unfortunately, is kind of like an on-off switch.

[00:07:52] It's not like, you know, oh, you're not metacognitive, but you are.

[00:07:55] You're not metacognitive, you are.

[00:07:57] It would be really helpful if we could just, you know,

[00:07:59] activate something in all of us that's suddenly made us these effective

[00:08:02] sort of metacognitive practitioners.

[00:08:04] And one thing that you said, John, like we know those people,

[00:08:07] whether in the workplace or at schools and students and stuff,

[00:08:10] and we know those people who just don't really sort of like reflect on much,

[00:08:14] if anything.

[00:08:14] And Perkins actually classifies those as kind of like a tacit learner.

[00:08:18] Like basically they're the student who sat at the back of the class

[00:08:21] who you just want to do some work.

[00:08:24] Like they're really struggling to just get anything done,

[00:08:27] whether it's behavioural, you know, whatever it might be.

[00:08:29] But actually the issue for them is they're just struggling

[00:08:32] to get through the work more generally,

[00:08:34] let alone starting to think about that meta aspect.

[00:08:38] And then those scales kind of like build up.

[00:08:40] So we go from tacit to aware.

[00:08:42] And an aware individual is, again,

[00:08:45] they're not where we kind of want them to be

[00:08:46] because an aware individual knows that they could be reflective.

[00:08:48] So they know that they could sit down and think,

[00:08:51] oh, you know, that went well.

[00:08:52] Oh, I should think about this.

[00:08:53] So they know they could do that, but they don't.

[00:08:55] So they're kind of like, they're one step, you know, further.

[00:08:58] You know, they're heading in the right direction,

[00:09:00] but they're still not acting upon it.

[00:09:02] They know that they could do these things,

[00:09:03] but they just, they never get around to it,

[00:09:05] or they can't be bothered, whatever it might be.

[00:09:07] Then we start to hit the sweet spots.

[00:09:09] So we then sort of, we move into sort of the two higher levels

[00:09:13] of strategic and reflective.

[00:09:15] So they're called metacognitive practitioners.

[00:09:17] And in effect, when we look at metacognitive theory,

[00:09:20] we can break it down roughly into three different areas.

[00:09:23] And that's our planning, our monitoring, and our evaluation.

[00:09:25] So how am I going to go about this task?

[00:09:27] Then when we're doing the task, how is it going?

[00:09:30] And once we've done the task, we go,

[00:09:31] huh, next time I'll do it like this,

[00:09:34] next time I'll do it like that.

[00:09:34] So it's kind of like a three-part process.

[00:09:37] So a strategic individual will think about the planning

[00:09:41] and the evaluation,

[00:09:42] and the reflective individual will go one step further,

[00:09:44] and they'll think about the monitoring.

[00:09:46] So those are kind of like the individuals we want to work with.

[00:09:49] Those are the individuals we want to be developing in schools.

[00:09:51] And those are the type of individuals

[00:09:52] who will be more successful when it comes to exams,

[00:09:55] because they'll focus in on the things they really need to,

[00:09:58] and they'll move away from the stuff

[00:09:59] that they don't necessarily need to.

[00:10:01] So in terms of the how do we ensure that things are

[00:10:05] sort of like not going too far,

[00:10:07] you know, basically can we over-reflect,

[00:10:09] can we over-evaluate, can we over-plan?

[00:10:12] I think that's quite difficult.

[00:10:13] I think that's almost like on a one-to-one student

[00:10:16] or individual level where we really get to know

[00:10:18] that student and understand how they go about doing things.

[00:10:21] I mean, when I'm in with schools,

[00:10:23] when I'm working with students,

[00:10:24] I always focus on sort of like developing strategies with them.

[00:10:27] So if they want to work on this area, what's the strategy?

[00:10:29] And just looking at sort of like how students can do different things

[00:10:33] in order to be more successful metacognitively.

[00:10:38] And if they're using those strategies correctly,

[00:10:39] hopefully they're not taking it too far

[00:10:41] and sort of overthinking or over-analysing.

[00:10:45] That's particularly pertinent in relation to exams

[00:10:47] and exam prep, isn't it?

[00:10:49] In terms of high stress, high stakes exams.

[00:10:51] Yeah, I mean, Nathan, what are the strategies

[00:10:53] that you would recommend around that sort of particularly difficult

[00:10:57] bit of the educational process?

[00:11:00] Yeah, I think that the biggest thing that that's...

[00:11:03] Well, I think there's a few things.

[00:11:04] I've made some notes before joining you guys today.

[00:11:06] I think there's a few different areas.

[00:11:08] I think the first one is just effective revision.

[00:11:10] And it's the thing that I see time and time again.

[00:11:12] I feel like as an education sector,

[00:11:14] we have got far better understanding

[00:11:16] what effective revision looks like

[00:11:18] and moving away from,

[00:11:19] oh, I'm just going to make notes.

[00:11:20] Oh, look, I highlighted it.

[00:11:21] It's so pretty.

[00:11:22] It must be effective.

[00:11:23] It feels quite rewarding when you get a page of notes

[00:11:26] or it's highlighted or it's neat

[00:11:27] or you've done like a revision poster

[00:11:29] or you've made a set of flashcards.

[00:11:32] Like, it's so rewarding

[00:11:33] and we get like that instant gratification, don't we?

[00:11:35] And that's what we want as humans.

[00:11:37] And I think as an education sector,

[00:11:40] we've definitely understood like that they look nice,

[00:11:42] but they don't stimulate learning.

[00:11:44] They're not making the brain think hard.

[00:11:46] But I don't necessarily think

[00:11:47] that always translates to students.

[00:11:48] And I think students can sometimes slip back into old habits of,

[00:11:52] because at the end of the day,

[00:11:54] humans are instinctively,

[00:11:56] lazy maybe sounds a little bit harsh,

[00:11:58] but where we can reduce our output,

[00:12:01] where we can make things easier for ourselves,

[00:12:02] that's within human nature, right?

[00:12:03] Well, it's, you know, it's living nature.

[00:12:05] If we can make things easier for ourselves,

[00:12:07] it doesn't matter if you're a koala bear or a human,

[00:12:09] if we can make things easier for ourselves,

[00:12:11] then that's what we do.

[00:12:12] So I think humans sometimes, you know,

[00:12:15] even students who know,

[00:12:16] oh, you know, I should maybe be doing this,

[00:12:18] but making a page of notes is so much nicer.

[00:12:20] So that's often, often where I'll start actually

[00:12:23] really delving into the,

[00:12:25] well, why are those things not effective to revise?

[00:12:28] And then why are these things effective?

[00:12:31] And yes, your brain hurts.

[00:12:32] I always say to students,

[00:12:33] if your brain's not hurting,

[00:12:34] you're not doing it right.

[00:12:35] You know, you're doing the wrong thing.

[00:12:38] Metacognitively.

[00:12:39] Oh yeah, go on, John.

[00:12:40] So we did an interview a while ago

[00:12:43] with a guy called Sander

[00:12:45] who runs a company that provides revision training.

[00:12:48] And one of the things that came up

[00:12:49] in our discussion with him

[00:12:51] was this idea that sort of students,

[00:12:54] they'll often sort of like jump through hoops

[00:12:57] in terms of revision.

[00:12:58] So for example, you know,

[00:13:00] schools will lay on things like revision sessions

[00:13:02] and students will think that

[00:13:03] because they've gone to those sessions,

[00:13:05] they've essentially like ticked the box,

[00:13:07] that therefore they have done what is required.

[00:13:11] And I think what gets lost in that

[00:13:12] is that like real sense of ownership

[00:13:15] from the students about,

[00:13:16] you know, really understanding

[00:13:18] what it is that they need to do

[00:13:20] in order to be successful

[00:13:22] in preparing for exams.

[00:13:23] Yeah, exactly.

[00:13:25] And even where students know

[00:13:27] what they're supposed to do,

[00:13:29] it's kind of like,

[00:13:29] I know I'm supposed to both make the flashcards

[00:13:31] and then use them.

[00:13:32] Okay, good, I've used them.

[00:13:33] So that means I was revising effectively.

[00:13:35] It's like, unless we understand

[00:13:37] almost more innately why they're helpful

[00:13:39] and why we need to keep doing it,

[00:13:42] it does almost become a tick list,

[00:13:43] which is why I've worked with some schools,

[00:13:45] I've worked with some amazing teachers

[00:13:46] who have sort of introduced

[00:13:48] these effective revision strategies.

[00:13:50] But to make sure that students actually get it,

[00:13:53] they start introducing them lower down the school.

[00:13:55] So actually year seven,

[00:13:57] they start introducing some of these ideas

[00:13:59] and they feed into year eight

[00:14:00] and year nine, year 10.

[00:14:01] And actually having those things built in

[00:14:03] and if all teachers within a school know,

[00:14:06] right, in this bit of tutor time in year seven,

[00:14:08] students are going to be learning about flashcards.

[00:14:10] So for the rest of year seven and beyond,

[00:14:11] make sure you're using flashcards

[00:14:13] and where relevant, use flashcards.

[00:14:14] And where it's built into the curriculum

[00:14:16] of different lessons,

[00:14:17] that's where I see it as being more effective

[00:14:20] because students don't,

[00:14:21] and again, this isn't school's fault.

[00:14:23] And I think schools are trying to be reactive

[00:14:26] where they've not had the chance to be proactive.

[00:14:28] But often if you have people come into a school

[00:14:30] in year 11 and say,

[00:14:31] oh, this is how you revise,

[00:14:33] it will help some students,

[00:14:34] but it needs to be embedded far sooner.

[00:14:37] And again, schools are moving towards that,

[00:14:38] but it's difficult.

[00:14:39] We've got so much to cover.

[00:14:40] There's so little money,

[00:14:41] so little time,

[00:14:42] but so much to do.

[00:14:43] It's not really a surprise,

[00:14:44] but where it can be embedded in year seven,

[00:14:49] you know, okay,

[00:14:50] year seven,

[00:14:50] they're going to learn how to make flashcards

[00:14:52] and then use them effectively.

[00:14:54] Year eight,

[00:14:55] they'll learn about self-testing.

[00:14:56] Year nine,

[00:14:57] they'll learn about,

[00:14:57] you know,

[00:14:57] answering exam papers,

[00:14:59] whatever it might be,

[00:15:00] but actually having that embedded

[00:15:01] and not just within an English or a maths,

[00:15:03] but also a music and a PE and a PHSE,

[00:15:07] you know,

[00:15:07] having it around all of the curriculum areas

[00:15:09] is what makes it effective.

[00:15:12] That's really important, isn't it?

[00:15:14] Yeah,

[00:15:14] because I think in previous discussions

[00:15:16] we've had with people

[00:15:16] about some of the more negative aspects of exams,

[00:15:19] you know,

[00:15:19] the general pressure on everyone,

[00:15:21] one of the things that we've come back to a few times

[00:15:23] is that schools tend to be really successful

[00:15:27] with their students

[00:15:28] when they are embedding this good practice

[00:15:31] around revision and around exam processes early.

[00:15:35] So not waiting basically until year 11,

[00:15:39] but kind of implementing a lot of this stuff,

[00:15:41] whether it's to do with these sort of study techniques

[00:15:43] and,

[00:15:45] you know,

[00:15:45] kind of methods like metacognition,

[00:15:49] like you're talking about,

[00:15:49] or whether it's just,

[00:15:50] you know,

[00:15:51] simple process of actually sitting in an exam room

[00:15:54] and doing all that kind of stuff.

[00:15:55] The schools that start early,

[00:15:56] that start in year seven,

[00:15:58] often seem to be the ones

[00:15:59] that are having real success

[00:16:00] by the time their students get to year 11.

[00:16:02] Because it's all about,

[00:16:03] I think you sort of saying that,

[00:16:04] and Sophie sort of,

[00:16:05] it's that idea of automaticity,

[00:16:07] isn't it?

[00:16:07] If we get to year 11

[00:16:08] and students are only starting

[00:16:10] to get their head around these ideas now,

[00:16:12] it's not going to help reduce

[00:16:13] any of that anxiety

[00:16:14] and any of that pressure.

[00:16:15] Whereas if it's something that's introduced

[00:16:17] and practiced in year seven

[00:16:18] and eight and nine,

[00:16:19] by the time we get to,

[00:16:20] I don't want to say the importance,

[00:16:21] there's always important,

[00:16:23] the next thing is always the most important,

[00:16:25] but by the time we get to GCSEs,

[00:16:26] A-levels, et cetera,

[00:16:28] you know,

[00:16:28] and then moving on to degree

[00:16:30] and future life.

[00:16:31] Actually,

[00:16:31] if those effective ways are automatic,

[00:16:33] if students don't need to go,

[00:16:35] oh,

[00:16:35] how do I make these flashcards?

[00:16:36] Oh,

[00:16:36] what am I doing with them again?

[00:16:37] Oh,

[00:16:38] they're taking so long to make

[00:16:39] and I know I need to advise

[00:16:40] and now I'm more stressed than I was.

[00:16:41] Actually,

[00:16:42] if it's automatic

[00:16:42] and students are developing

[00:16:44] a bank of flashcards

[00:16:45] over the course of the year,

[00:16:46] or even,

[00:16:47] building on what you said there,

[00:16:48] John,

[00:16:48] it's not only right

[00:16:49] that students start to develop

[00:16:51] these revision skills in year seven,

[00:16:53] you know,

[00:16:54] eight,

[00:16:54] nine,

[00:16:54] ten,

[00:16:54] et cetera,

[00:16:55] because they're already doing those

[00:16:56] more formal assessments.

[00:16:57] But equally,

[00:16:58] we know that effective revision

[00:17:00] leads to learning.

[00:17:01] So if students learn better in year seven,

[00:17:04] by the time we get to year 11,

[00:17:05] it really is just recapping

[00:17:06] and revising

[00:17:07] as opposed to almost reteaching.

[00:17:09] Because I think

[00:17:10] that's something

[00:17:11] that students struggle with.

[00:17:12] This idea of revision

[00:17:13] is actually,

[00:17:14] well,

[00:17:14] you should know all of this stuff,

[00:17:15] it's just making sure

[00:17:16] you can still remember it all.

[00:17:17] But actually,

[00:17:18] a lot of students

[00:17:19] get to year 11

[00:17:19] and they're still having

[00:17:20] to teach themselves stuff.

[00:17:22] Some of them,

[00:17:22] you know,

[00:17:23] maybe they have mastered it

[00:17:24] and they are just revising,

[00:17:24] but a lot of kids are going,

[00:17:25] oh,

[00:17:26] the night before an exam,

[00:17:27] well,

[00:17:27] I don't actually understand this.

[00:17:28] And it's like,

[00:17:29] well,

[00:17:29] we've just had five years

[00:17:30] to try to understand it.

[00:17:32] Revision doesn't necessarily

[00:17:33] solve that.

[00:17:34] So I guess

[00:17:34] that's the difference

[00:17:35] between almost reteaching

[00:17:36] and revision as well,

[00:17:37] isn't it?

[00:17:45] I was just going to say,

[00:17:46] the one thing

[00:17:47] sort of talking about

[00:17:47] this sort of idea

[00:17:49] of stress

[00:17:50] and students feeling

[00:17:51] comfortable and able

[00:17:52] to perform,

[00:17:52] I think leads on

[00:17:53] to one of the other things

[00:17:54] that I've,

[00:17:55] well,

[00:17:56] starting to do a lot

[00:17:56] of work on.

[00:17:58] And it's building in

[00:17:59] that idea of sort of

[00:18:00] like metacognitive revision,

[00:18:01] knowing exactly what

[00:18:02] to revise.

[00:18:03] Because again,

[00:18:04] if students know

[00:18:05] how they should be revising,

[00:18:07] they know that they need

[00:18:07] to use flashcards

[00:18:08] and, you know,

[00:18:09] they know that they need

[00:18:09] to self-test

[00:18:10] and they need to

[00:18:11] answer exam papers

[00:18:12] and mark them

[00:18:13] and reflect upon it,

[00:18:14] that's all good and well.

[00:18:15] But if students are revising

[00:18:16] the wrong things,

[00:18:18] and by that I don't mean

[00:18:19] they're revising

[00:18:20] the wrong history topic

[00:18:21] that they haven't

[00:18:21] even studied,

[00:18:22] you know,

[00:18:22] I don't mean sort of

[00:18:23] like they're studying

[00:18:25] the wrong text for English,

[00:18:26] not things like that,

[00:18:27] but in terms of students

[00:18:28] actually being able

[00:18:29] to accurately identify

[00:18:32] what their strengths are

[00:18:33] and hence spending

[00:18:34] less time focusing on them.

[00:18:36] So for example,

[00:18:37] you know,

[00:18:37] students are using flashcards

[00:18:38] and they use the

[00:18:39] Lightner method and,

[00:18:40] you know,

[00:18:40] oh,

[00:18:40] I've got this right,

[00:18:41] you know,

[00:18:41] three times in a row

[00:18:42] so now I only need

[00:18:42] to look at it

[00:18:43] one day a week.

[00:18:44] That's a really,

[00:18:45] you know,

[00:18:45] obvious way of a student

[00:18:46] knowing,

[00:18:47] oh,

[00:18:47] you know,

[00:18:47] I know this.

[00:18:48] But more generally

[00:18:50] because we can't

[00:18:51] flashcard everything,

[00:18:52] so actually working

[00:18:53] with students

[00:18:54] around exams

[00:18:55] and using things

[00:18:56] like exam wrappers

[00:18:57] to help students

[00:18:58] accurately identify

[00:19:00] what it is

[00:19:01] they do know

[00:19:02] and how accurate

[00:19:03] their judgments are

[00:19:04] and improving

[00:19:05] those judgments.

[00:19:06] Sorry Nathan,

[00:19:07] can you explain

[00:19:07] what exam wrapper is?

[00:19:08] Yeah,

[00:19:09] so the exam wrapper is,

[00:19:11] well,

[00:19:11] I think it gets its name

[00:19:12] because it's often

[00:19:12] an A3 piece of paper

[00:19:14] that can be wrapped

[00:19:14] around,

[00:19:15] you know,

[00:19:15] an A4 exam booklet.

[00:19:17] The idea of an exam wrapper

[00:19:18] is sort of a set

[00:19:20] of questions,

[00:19:21] reflection questions

[00:19:22] a student can answer

[00:19:23] post-assessment

[00:19:25] and really,

[00:19:26] it's often post-assessment

[00:19:27] but it can be,

[00:19:28] you know,

[00:19:28] post-end-of-week test

[00:19:30] or whatever it might be

[00:19:31] and we get students

[00:19:32] to reflect on,

[00:19:33] you know,

[00:19:34] are they happy

[00:19:34] with their score

[00:19:35] or, you know,

[00:19:36] did they do as well

[00:19:37] as they could do

[00:19:37] and I think they're used

[00:19:39] in a lot of schools

[00:19:40] but I'd argue

[00:19:41] not that effectively.

[00:19:43] So research

[00:19:43] that I've sort of

[00:19:44] been looking at

[00:19:44] the last probably

[00:19:45] couple of years now

[00:19:47] is exam wrappers

[00:19:48] are most effectively used

[00:19:50] or getting students

[00:19:51] to reflect

[00:19:52] is most effective

[00:19:54] instantly

[00:19:54] after the assessment

[00:19:55] has been done

[00:19:56] not once it's been marked

[00:19:58] and it's once it's been marked

[00:19:59] when most schools

[00:20:00] would do a wrapper.

[00:20:00] So, you know,

[00:20:01] students will go

[00:20:02] and sit a mock right

[00:20:03] and they'll do

[00:20:04] like December mocks,

[00:20:05] year 11,

[00:20:06] the teachers will take them in,

[00:20:07] they'll mark them,

[00:20:08] the papers get given back

[00:20:09] and then students

[00:20:10] look at the papers

[00:20:10] and they do a quick wrap

[00:20:11] and they go,

[00:20:12] oh, I'm not very happy

[00:20:13] with my score

[00:20:13] and I'm going to revise

[00:20:14] a little bit more

[00:20:15] and I know this is a topic

[00:20:16] I need to work on

[00:20:17] and that has value, right?

[00:20:19] Students maybe

[00:20:21] get a bit of a blast

[00:20:22] and they go,

[00:20:22] oh dear,

[00:20:23] I didn't do as well

[00:20:23] as I thought

[00:20:24] or, you know,

[00:20:24] I thought I knew that one

[00:20:25] and, you know,

[00:20:26] actually I haven't

[00:20:27] but the idea

[00:20:28] of doing this

[00:20:30] instantly

[00:20:32] after students

[00:20:32] have answered

[00:20:33] the questions

[00:20:33] rather than waiting

[00:20:34] for it to be marked

[00:20:35] is we can actually

[00:20:36] start to improve

[00:20:37] a student's judgment

[00:20:38] of self

[00:20:39] so that's the idea

[00:20:39] you know if we said

[00:20:40] to a kid

[00:20:41] you know,

[00:20:42] how good are you

[00:20:43] at this topic?

[00:20:45] Some kids would be

[00:20:45] really accurate

[00:20:46] and they would know

[00:20:47] exactly what

[00:20:48] they're good at

[00:20:48] but some kids would be like

[00:20:49] yeah, yeah, yeah,

[00:20:49] I'm amazing

[00:20:50] that, you know,

[00:20:51] that kind of like

[00:20:53] bliss of ignorance

[00:20:54] like, oh,

[00:20:55] not actually knowing

[00:20:56] that they don't know it

[00:20:57] so they think

[00:20:57] they know everything

[00:20:57] that feels like

[00:20:58] a bit of a tone twister

[00:20:59] but you know,

[00:21:00] this idea of overconfidence

[00:21:01] oh yeah,

[00:21:02] of course I know it

[00:21:03] of course I know it

[00:21:03] so if we get students

[00:21:05] to do an exam wrapper

[00:21:07] instantly

[00:21:07] after they've answered

[00:21:08] the paper

[00:21:09] before they've got

[00:21:09] any feedback

[00:21:10] from their teacher

[00:21:11] we're forcing students

[00:21:12] to think, right,

[00:21:13] well, what is it

[00:21:14] I was exactly being asked

[00:21:15] to do?

[00:21:15] Do I think I've got

[00:21:16] the marks?

[00:21:17] Do I think I've got

[00:21:17] that correct?

[00:21:18] What, you know,

[00:21:19] if it's maths

[00:21:19] is it sort of right

[00:21:20] or is it wrong?

[00:21:20] If it's history

[00:21:21] you know,

[00:21:21] how many marks

[00:21:22] do I think I've got

[00:21:22] out of 20

[00:21:23] or how many marks

[00:21:24] do I think I've got

[00:21:24] out of 30?

[00:21:25] Then once the teacher's

[00:21:26] marked it

[00:21:27] a student is able

[00:21:28] to compare

[00:21:29] their judgment

[00:21:30] at the time

[00:21:30] to what they actually got

[00:21:31] and that allows students

[00:21:33] to develop their

[00:21:34] knowledge of self

[00:21:35] that sort of

[00:21:35] their judgment of self

[00:21:36] and helps students

[00:21:38] accurately choose

[00:21:39] the topics

[00:21:40] that they're struggling

[00:21:41] with and helps to deal

[00:21:42] sometimes with a little bit

[00:21:43] of overconfidence

[00:21:44] a little bit better

[00:21:45] because what we don't want

[00:21:46] are students going

[00:21:47] oh I know this

[00:21:48] I know this

[00:21:49] they do a mock paper

[00:21:50] they don't do too well

[00:21:51] but unfortunately

[00:21:53] a lot of overconfident

[00:21:54] students will go

[00:21:54] oh I didn't revise

[00:21:55] next time when I revise

[00:21:56] it'll be fine

[00:21:56] whereas actually

[00:21:57] if we'd have done

[00:21:58] those reflection questions

[00:21:59] that bit earlier

[00:22:00] and forced students

[00:22:01] to reflect on it

[00:22:02] you know instantly

[00:22:02] after answering the paper

[00:22:03] it was showing a little

[00:22:05] bit more light

[00:22:05] that actually

[00:22:06] they thought

[00:22:07] they knew this question

[00:22:08] or they didn't know

[00:22:08] that question

[00:22:09] and actually

[00:22:10] they didn't know it

[00:22:10] and they need to

[00:22:11] you know they actually

[00:22:12] need to pull up

[00:22:12] their socks

[00:22:12] or that little bit sooner

[00:22:13] that's really fascinating

[00:22:14] Nathan

[00:22:15] it's not something

[00:22:15] I would have ever

[00:22:16] thought of

[00:22:17] of course that happens

[00:22:18] naturally sometimes

[00:22:19] doesn't it

[00:22:19] students go back

[00:22:20] to lessons

[00:22:20] after an exam

[00:22:21] and they sort of

[00:22:21] will discuss the paper

[00:22:22] but that sort of

[00:22:23] formal reflection

[00:22:24] immediately after an exam

[00:22:26] is not something

[00:22:26] that I've really seen

[00:22:27] before

[00:22:28] could you explain

[00:22:29] to us how you think

[00:22:31] metacognitive practices

[00:22:32] generally can best be

[00:22:34] developed within school

[00:22:35] so I think number one

[00:22:36] is make sure that

[00:22:37] anything that we're

[00:22:38] trying to do

[00:22:40] is within a lesson

[00:22:41] is within curriculum

[00:22:42] so I think sometimes

[00:22:44] it's possible to teach

[00:22:45] revision skills

[00:22:46] a little bit more explicit

[00:22:47] we can do it

[00:22:48] during a tutor time

[00:22:49] we can do it

[00:22:50] during an assembly

[00:22:50] you know we can

[00:22:51] we can have sort of

[00:22:52] like drop out lessons

[00:22:53] where students

[00:22:53] leave their lessons

[00:22:54] and they come and learn

[00:22:55] about effective revision

[00:22:56] it's not true

[00:22:57] of metacognition

[00:22:58] because as we sort of

[00:23:00] you know when we're

[00:23:00] talking about those definitions

[00:23:01] all of the meta

[00:23:02] all of the analysis

[00:23:03] is in relation

[00:23:04] to the cognition

[00:23:05] so we can't sort of

[00:23:06] remove that cognition

[00:23:07] and analyse the meta

[00:23:08] so I think that's

[00:23:09] the first thing

[00:23:09] and I think it's

[00:23:10] something that schools

[00:23:11] can fall into

[00:23:12] like oh you know

[00:23:13] if we have it as a

[00:23:14] part of PSHE

[00:23:15] or if students learn

[00:23:15] about revision

[00:23:16] then metacognition

[00:23:16] it'll work

[00:23:17] so the first thing is

[00:23:18] whatever we're trying

[00:23:19] to develop

[00:23:21] metacognition wise

[00:23:22] has to be within

[00:23:23] a lesson

[00:23:24] so it's got to be

[00:23:24] within the core

[00:23:25] of a music lesson

[00:23:26] within the analysis

[00:23:27] of a poem in English

[00:23:28] within solving equations

[00:23:29] in maths

[00:23:30] you know within

[00:23:30] learning how to

[00:23:32] serve a ball

[00:23:33] you know playing

[00:23:33] tennis and peeing

[00:23:34] so it's got to be

[00:23:35] within the lessons

[00:23:36] it's not an add-on

[00:23:37] which actually makes

[00:23:38] it a lot easier

[00:23:39] for teachers

[00:23:39] because you're not

[00:23:40] trying to do

[00:23:40] something else

[00:23:41] it's not taking up

[00:23:42] more time

[00:23:44] so that's hugely

[00:23:45] beneficial

[00:23:45] so that's the first thing

[00:23:47] I think the biggest

[00:23:49] go-to

[00:23:50] for this

[00:23:51] is

[00:23:52] teachers sharing

[00:23:53] their expertise

[00:23:53] so when we're stood

[00:23:54] at the front of the room

[00:23:56] we're experts

[00:23:57] our knowledge

[00:23:58] is coming out

[00:23:59] we know the curriculum

[00:24:01] inside out

[00:24:02] we know how it links

[00:24:03] together

[00:24:03] we've got those

[00:24:04] strong mental models

[00:24:05] we've got the coherency

[00:24:06] of the curriculum

[00:24:06] we know why that topic

[00:24:07] goes before that topic

[00:24:08] goes before that topic

[00:24:09] we know why knowing this

[00:24:10] means you can know that

[00:24:11] and equally

[00:24:12] we've just studied

[00:24:13] that subject

[00:24:14] to a far higher level

[00:24:15] we sometimes have students

[00:24:16] we go

[00:24:17] oh I feel like they know

[00:24:17] a bit more than me

[00:24:18] but 99.99% of the time

[00:24:20] we know more than the students

[00:24:22] and we've obviously

[00:24:23] done far more education

[00:24:24] in our subject area

[00:24:25] definitely got A levels

[00:24:26] most of the time

[00:24:27] got a degree

[00:24:27] in the subject area

[00:24:28] we know more than our students

[00:24:30] we really get our subject

[00:24:31] we get sort of

[00:24:32] the inside out

[00:24:33] of our subject

[00:24:33] and what we can do

[00:24:36] as a teacher

[00:24:36] is really model

[00:24:37] that expertise

[00:24:38] so a few things

[00:24:39] that we can do

[00:24:40] to develop metacognition

[00:24:41] is every time

[00:24:42] we make a decision

[00:24:44] as an expert

[00:24:45] narrating that

[00:24:46] to students

[00:24:47] so if we know

[00:24:48] that we're going to do

[00:24:49] do it one way

[00:24:50] rather than another

[00:24:51] we're actually making

[00:24:52] that explicit to students

[00:24:53] because otherwise

[00:24:53] they're only going to learn

[00:24:54] that after answering

[00:24:55] maybe 200 or 300

[00:24:56] more questions

[00:24:58] so actually

[00:24:58] sharing that

[00:24:59] I'm going to do it

[00:25:00] like this because

[00:25:01] or when we focus

[00:25:02] in on a keyword

[00:25:04] we're really good

[00:25:05] as teachers

[00:25:05] I was thinking

[00:25:06] about this earlier

[00:25:06] we break down lessons

[00:25:08] into small manageable

[00:25:09] chunks for students

[00:25:09] to understand

[00:25:10] but do we take

[00:25:11] the time almost

[00:25:12] to narrate

[00:25:13] why we're breaking

[00:25:14] them down into

[00:25:14] those chunks

[00:25:15] do we take the time

[00:25:15] to narrate

[00:25:16] why we focus

[00:25:17] on that keyword

[00:25:17] why are we focusing

[00:25:19] on that phrase

[00:25:19] why are we focusing

[00:25:20] on this bit

[00:25:21] other question

[00:25:21] first

[00:25:22] so all of those

[00:25:23] little things

[00:25:24] that are informed

[00:25:25] by our experience

[00:25:26] or our higher level

[00:25:28] of knowledge

[00:25:28] i.e. how am I

[00:25:30] making the decisions

[00:25:31] that the students

[00:25:31] in front of me

[00:25:32] wouldn't be able to

[00:25:33] what knowledge

[00:25:34] do they not have

[00:25:34] what expertise

[00:25:35] do they not have

[00:25:36] that is allowing me

[00:25:37] to make this decision

[00:25:38] and sharing that

[00:25:39] with students

[00:25:39] because that is

[00:25:40] in effect

[00:25:40] all of our

[00:25:41] metacognition

[00:25:42] pouring out

[00:25:43] right

[00:25:43] knowing how to do

[00:25:44] one thing

[00:25:44] you know

[00:25:45] knowing how to do

[00:25:46] something this way

[00:25:47] rather than another way

[00:25:49] that's our

[00:25:50] metacognition

[00:25:50] coming out

[00:25:51] because we've

[00:25:51] done it both ways

[00:25:52] before we've

[00:25:52] reflected and we've

[00:25:53] learnt from it

[00:25:54] so those are the

[00:25:55] top two things

[00:25:56] i think john

[00:25:57] that i'd suggest

[00:25:58] that teachers

[00:25:58] can go and do

[00:25:59] instantly

[00:25:59] that's brilliant

[00:26:01] how do you see

[00:26:02] the technology

[00:26:04] affecting things

[00:26:05] in this area

[00:26:05] because obviously

[00:26:05] we talk time

[00:26:07] and time again

[00:26:07] about the

[00:26:08] advances of

[00:26:08] technology on

[00:26:09] assessment

[00:26:10] which is obviously

[00:26:11] rapidly changing

[00:26:13] and how do you

[00:26:15] think technology

[00:26:16] can help in this

[00:26:17] area particularly

[00:26:18] in relation to

[00:26:18] assessment

[00:26:19] be interesting

[00:26:20] to get your

[00:26:21] take

[00:26:21] i think the

[00:26:24] one

[00:26:26] thing that jumps

[00:26:27] to me is

[00:26:28] is if we link

[00:26:28] back to students

[00:26:29] knowing what

[00:26:30] to revise

[00:26:31] because it's a

[00:26:32] really hard

[00:26:33] thing to know

[00:26:34] what to revise

[00:26:34] because we've got

[00:26:35] to kind of

[00:26:35] defeat human nature

[00:26:36] which is

[00:26:36] i'm just going to

[00:26:37] do the stuff

[00:26:38] which is easy

[00:26:38] hence it's

[00:26:39] normally the stuff

[00:26:40] i already know

[00:26:40] and we also know

[00:26:41] that it's hard

[00:26:42] to improve

[00:26:43] an individual's

[00:26:44] judgment of self

[00:26:45] it's really hard

[00:26:46] to get our own

[00:26:48] self-reflections

[00:26:48] in line with how

[00:26:49] good we actually

[00:26:50] are at something

[00:26:51] there's normally

[00:26:51] a difference

[00:26:52] if we have

[00:26:52] overconfidence

[00:26:53] and we think

[00:26:53] we're better

[00:26:53] than we are

[00:26:53] or we have

[00:26:54] those students

[00:26:54] who are really

[00:26:55] anxious and they

[00:26:55] don't think

[00:26:56] they can do

[00:26:56] anything even

[00:26:57] though they're

[00:26:57] always scoring

[00:26:57] 80% so that

[00:26:58] judgment of self

[00:26:59] how good am i

[00:27:00] is really quite

[00:27:01] difficult and i think

[00:27:02] that's maybe where

[00:27:05] technology it sort of

[00:27:06] from a metacognitive

[00:27:07] perspective from a

[00:27:08] more effective

[00:27:08] revision perspective

[00:27:09] could be helpful

[00:27:10] in terms of

[00:27:12] almost identifying

[00:27:13] those areas

[00:27:14] on behalf

[00:27:15] of students

[00:27:16] and actually

[00:27:17] i know that

[00:27:18] teachers will often

[00:27:19] do

[00:27:19] you know

[00:27:20] qlas

[00:27:21] after

[00:27:22] you know

[00:27:23] students have

[00:27:24] done mocks

[00:27:24] and we kind of

[00:27:25] like go by eye

[00:27:26] in determining

[00:27:26] what students

[00:27:27] need to work on

[00:27:27] but actually

[00:27:28] systems and

[00:27:29] programs

[00:27:29] identifying that

[00:27:31] for students

[00:27:31] on a

[00:27:31] you know

[00:27:32] identifying that

[00:27:33] on a student

[00:27:33] by student

[00:27:34] basis

[00:27:35] because there is

[00:27:36] that you know

[00:27:36] start to be

[00:27:37] technology out there

[00:27:37] homework platforms

[00:27:39] where they kind of

[00:27:40] like do retrieval

[00:27:41] quizzes based upon

[00:27:41] the homeworks that

[00:27:42] students have done

[00:27:42] for the last

[00:27:43] 6, 10, 12 weeks

[00:27:45] that say to a student

[00:27:46] right these are the

[00:27:46] things you're

[00:27:47] constantly getting

[00:27:47] wrong but going

[00:27:48] into a little bit

[00:27:49] more depth you

[00:27:49] know are there

[00:27:51] links between the

[00:27:52] topics that students

[00:27:52] keep getting wrong

[00:27:53] are there sort of

[00:27:54] like critical skills

[00:27:55] that students just

[00:27:56] aren't getting

[00:27:56] which is why they

[00:27:57] keep getting you

[00:27:58] know these different

[00:27:58] questions wrong

[00:27:59] so i think that to

[00:28:01] me is probably

[00:28:01] the most obvious

[00:28:03] place for

[00:28:04] technology could

[00:28:05] quite quickly

[00:28:06] become helpful

[00:28:07] for students

[00:28:08] and becoming

[00:28:09] more effective

[00:28:10] learners because

[00:28:10] that's what we

[00:28:11] want we know

[00:28:12] that as the years

[00:28:13] go on standards

[00:28:14] are just going to

[00:28:14] become higher and

[00:28:15] higher and higher

[00:28:16] and higher i mean

[00:28:16] it wasn't that

[00:28:17] long ago that just

[00:28:17] going to university

[00:28:18] and getting a degree

[00:28:19] was kind of like

[00:28:19] the highest level

[00:28:20] of thing i know

[00:28:21] for me now it's

[00:28:21] like oh you

[00:28:21] don't have a

[00:28:22] master's degree

[00:28:22] oh dear you're

[00:28:23] behind other

[00:28:23] people in the

[00:28:24] packing or

[00:28:24] i'm like what's

[00:28:25] it going to be

[00:28:25] in a few years

[00:28:25] everyone's got to

[00:28:26] have a doctorate

[00:28:26] so we know that

[00:28:27] things are just

[00:28:28] going to keep

[00:28:28] going up and up

[00:28:29] and up so

[00:28:31] there's a limit

[00:28:31] to sort of

[00:28:32] like how hard

[00:28:33] we can make

[00:28:33] the curriculum

[00:28:33] that sort of

[00:28:34] thing whereas

[00:28:34] if we can make

[00:28:35] sort of revision

[00:28:36] and learning more

[00:28:37] effective and get

[00:28:38] individuals to focus

[00:28:39] in on exactly

[00:28:40] what it is

[00:28:40] they're struggling

[00:28:42] on and sort of

[00:28:43] removing the

[00:28:44] biases the self

[00:28:45] bias or the

[00:28:45] teacher bias or

[00:28:46] whatever it might

[00:28:46] be and actually

[00:28:47] having ai and

[00:28:49] sort of tech

[00:28:49] help us do that

[00:28:51] and i think would

[00:28:52] be the most

[00:28:53] helpful thing

[00:28:54] that jumps out

[00:28:55] to me right now

[00:28:57] that's absolutely

[00:28:57] brilliant

[00:28:58] nathan thank you

[00:28:59] so much for your

[00:28:59] time and can you

[00:29:00] let people know

[00:29:01] where they can hear

[00:29:02] more from you

[00:29:02] and or get in

[00:29:03] contact with you

[00:29:04] if they want to

[00:29:05] hear more about

[00:29:05] metacognition

[00:29:06] yeah absolutely

[00:29:07] so x i have

[00:29:09] just i think

[00:29:10] stopped calling it

[00:29:11] twitter now

[00:29:11] so yeah x and

[00:29:12] blue sky just

[00:29:13] at mr metacognition

[00:29:16] linkedin is just

[00:29:16] nathan burns

[00:29:17] and then there's

[00:29:18] also my website as

[00:29:19] well which is

[00:29:19] mr metacognition

[00:29:20] dot com

[00:29:21] basically if you if

[00:29:22] you put mr

[00:29:23] metacognition anywhere

[00:29:24] i will be there

[00:29:25] there was even a

[00:29:25] time when i had to

[00:29:26] tiktok for a little

[00:29:27] bit but i got really

[00:29:27] confused by it after

[00:29:28] a week so you won't

[00:29:30] find me on tiktok

[00:29:30] anymore um but

[00:29:31] yeah otherwise any

[00:29:32] any other normal

[00:29:33] social media platform

[00:29:34] if you pop mr

[00:29:35] metacognition in um

[00:29:37] then i will pop on

[00:29:39] uh pop up

[00:29:43] thank you so much

[00:29:44] for listening to the

[00:29:45] exam man podcast we

[00:29:46] really really appreciate

[00:29:47] your support remember

[00:29:49] that you can access it

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[00:29:51] podcast platforms give

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[00:29:54] follow and we will

[00:29:56] catch you next time

[00:29:57] you