Exams in the USA: The Exam Man goes Stateside

[00:00:23] Is there any standardization of that that goes on? No. So there is no standardization and everything with education is done at a very local level.

[00:00:36] I'm gonna have to fact check all of what I just said.

[00:00:40] You spent very authoristically, John. I believe you.

[00:00:42] No, I'm sure that's the case. I'm sure I read that recently.

[00:01:03] So we spend pretty much every week talking about the ins and outs of our exam system in the UK.

[00:01:10] And we realized that we'd never really done anything to compare or contrast it with systems in other countries.

[00:01:17] And we also realized, Sophie and I talking, that we didn't really know very much about the United States,

[00:01:22] which seems like quite a bizarre thing that we really had no idea.

[00:01:26] I think I thought I knew a bit about it, but apparently I didn't.

[00:01:30] So I knew certain words and phrases like SATs and I sort of knew that those were used for university admissions.

[00:01:38] But I didn't...

[00:01:38] I think I thought they were like SATs for older...

[00:01:41] SATs.

[00:01:42] Yeah. But yeah, I didn't really understand the place of anything, you know, within the entire system.

[00:01:49] So we thought this week that we'd try and find out a little bit more about how it works and how it's different to our system.

[00:01:57] So Sophie, who are we talking to this week?

[00:01:58] Yeah. So we spoke to Dr. Kelly Frindle, who got up incredibly early in the morning to speak to us from her home in Hawaii.

[00:02:09] And she told us a little bit about living in Hawaii, which was really interesting.

[00:02:14] But mainly she spoke to us about her career, which has been supporting high school students with their entrance tests to universities and colleges in the US, across the US.

[00:02:29] But she also just gave us the most fascinating overview of the system over there.

[00:02:35] Really, really great.

[00:02:36] Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the things that kind of became clear from the conversation is what is that the system is really is really quite different.

[00:02:45] Much more, but I thought...

[00:02:46] They do have an emphasis on, you know, on doing exams and obtaining grades through doing exams.

[00:02:51] But like it's much less kind of centralised and standardised than it is in the UK.

[00:02:57] And you might think that's because the United States has 50 states and therefore they all do things differently.

[00:03:03] And that is true. But also, even at the state level, it doesn't seem like it's it works quite like our system does.

[00:03:11] So, yeah, I hope you enjoy this conversation.

[00:03:14] I hope you you learn plenty about what goes on across the pond.

[00:03:25] I live in the United States and I do work with students mostly who are taking entrance exams for college and university and then also students who are applying to private and boarding schools who are a little bit younger.

[00:03:36] And so the ages that I work with are generally about 16, 17, 18.

[00:03:41] And then sometimes I have 10 and 11 year olds and 13 year olds to some of the younger kids.

[00:03:46] And there's two different groups of exams for those two different ages.

[00:03:51] And for the older students, the ones who are looking to go to college or university, they'll take either the SAT or the ACT.

[00:03:59] And there are different companies that offer the exams, but they do similar things.

[00:04:04] And schools that want those scores will take either test.

[00:04:08] They'll take either the SAT or the ACT.

[00:04:10] So students get to decide which ones they're going to take.

[00:04:12] Oh, interesting.

[00:04:14] So I didn't know that.

[00:04:15] That's literally how much we don't know.

[00:04:17] Yeah. So, Kelly, so the exams are administered by kind of private companies then?

[00:04:22] Is that is that how it works?

[00:04:24] Correct. Yes.

[00:04:25] And not all students have to take them.

[00:04:28] So in the different states, all of the states have their own rules for education.

[00:04:32] So there's no national plan of what has to happen.

[00:04:35] And so each of the states set their own rules.

[00:04:37] And some states say all students have to take this exam as an exit exam.

[00:04:42] But a lot of states don't say that.

[00:04:44] So students who may not be planning to go to university or college, a lot of times they may not take the test at all.

[00:04:50] And what has made things much more complicated is in the last couple of years with everything that's happened with the pandemic, a lot of the colleges and universities went to what's called test optional, which means that you actually get to choose whether you're going to take the test or not.

[00:05:05] And this has added really a lot of confusion to the process because some of the schools, it's kind of a wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing of like, yes, it's technically optional.

[00:05:17] But if you look at the data that's coming out, the people that they're accepting into their schools are the people who are submitting test scores and submitting good test scores.

[00:05:25] And some schools have also gone to what's called test blind, which means they won't look at scores at all.

[00:05:32] And so in the state of California, they actually had a lawsuit a couple of years ago where they are no longer allowed to ask for SAT or ACT scores and you can't submit them by law.

[00:05:44] And so they have to look at other factors.

[00:05:46] And so it's gotten really complicated as to whether you should take a test, whether you should submit your scores and what you should do.

[00:05:53] And it has really caused a lot of confusion.

[00:05:55] I bet. And it must make those decisions about where people want to go to school quite dependent on whether, you know, how much you want to be tested and what you wanted to be tested on as well, which is interesting.

[00:06:08] So, yeah. Has that really complicated your work that I imagine?

[00:06:11] Yes. And especially in the early days of 2020, 2021, the schools, that first year of the pandemic, almost all of the schools dropped requirements for the test because logistically students couldn't take them.

[00:06:25] There were none offered between February and about October of 2020.

[00:06:29] And so that first year, almost all schools just said, never mind, just get us what you can.

[00:06:33] And then some of the schools said, oh, well, we were thinking about this anyway.

[00:06:38] So we're going to try and experiment for the next three years and keep things test optional.

[00:06:42] And some said, no, we're going back to test.

[00:06:44] And some of them said, we're permanently test optional.

[00:06:47] And California got sued and they said, we can't accept test.

[00:06:50] So a lot of people just gave up on them and they said, oh, well, optional means optional.

[00:06:55] It means I get to choose.

[00:06:56] So I'm not, I'm going to choose not to do it.

[00:06:59] And it, that turned out to be a mistake for a lot of people because then it did turn out they actually needed those scores.

[00:07:06] And so, yes, it has just, nobody knows what to do.

[00:07:11] And for a time people were like, never mind, why would I take it if I don't have to?

[00:07:15] And the, the trend is starting to swing back a little bit the other way now.

[00:07:19] Yeah. Freedom's not so good.

[00:07:21] It's interesting because we had a similar thing.

[00:07:23] It's thing in the UK, obviously in the pandemic, no students sat any exams or tests here.

[00:07:28] Yeah. But it is quite interesting how quickly people were quite keen to get back to it because obviously it does provide you with that kind of a, like slightly more objective standard by which to make decisions about, you know, who you're going to admit, who you're not.

[00:07:44] So what do, what do colleges do when they don't, what they're basing their admissions on if they're not testing?

[00:07:54] Like what's the academic standard then that they're basing their decision on?

[00:08:00] So if they're not looking at test scores, what they say is they have a holistic approach is the term they like to use, holistic admissions.

[00:08:07] Sounds like a lot of work.

[00:08:08] Which means they're looking at.

[00:08:09] Sounds like a lot of work for the educators.

[00:08:11] They're looking at grades, but grades actually are not a really good predictor anymore because a recent study came out and said that basically 80% of the country in the US right now of students have an A level grade point average.

[00:08:27] An A is the highest that you can get.

[00:08:28] And so if 80% of students have an A, that really isn't a useful metric anymore.

[00:08:35] So grades have really become divorced from reality.

[00:08:38] So, but they look at grades, they look at people have to write essays for the applications.

[00:08:45] Sometimes they do interviews.

[00:08:46] They're looking at letters of recommendation.

[00:08:48] They're looking at people's extracurricular activities.

[00:08:50] So what they're doing outside of school, but it has made it really difficult for the admissions committees.

[00:08:56] And especially one of the unintended effects of not requiring the test is that people who would never have applied to the top level schools like Harvard or Yale or any of the Ivy League schools, all of a sudden people are like, oh, well, I've got a chance now.

[00:09:11] And people are applying in droves to schools they would never have applied to before.

[00:09:16] And so some of those schools are getting tens of thousands of more applications than they were getting five years ago.

[00:09:22] And they don't have the people to read them.

[00:09:23] They don't have the ability to sort them.

[00:09:25] And so it's just made a giant nightmare for everybody.

[00:09:29] Because that's one of the purposes of testing is we've come through a lot of the conversations we've had is that kind of it's like a sifting process as well, as well as giving people, you know, a sense of where they are academically.

[00:09:39] It's also for if you're trying to get onto a course or into a college, it's like a sifting tool for those institutions to be able to make decisions more easily.

[00:09:49] And I guess if you take that away, then you've completely removed one of the key areas, the key sifting tool that they've got.

[00:09:55] Well, Kelly, when you say it's based on grades, just to take you back a bit, are those like kind of high school, those are high school awarded grades, are they?

[00:10:06] So correct.

[00:10:07] So how are those grades arrived?

[00:10:09] How's that grade point average arrived at?

[00:10:12] What do students do in order to achieve that?

[00:10:16] And how is that?

[00:10:16] Is there any standardization of that that goes on?

[00:10:20] No.

[00:10:21] So there is no standardization.

[00:10:23] And everything with education is done at a very local level.

[00:10:27] So even within states, so there are state guidelines, but then there are also city guidelines and different schools do different things.

[00:10:35] And the funding all is related to where you live and how much money there's available.

[00:10:40] You know, if you're in a wealthy district, your school is probably getting a lot of resources.

[00:10:44] If you're not, you aren't.

[00:10:45] And so there's a lot of inequality among the education system across the whole country.

[00:10:50] And we've got 50 different states, which are basically like 50 different countries.

[00:10:54] They all have their own things going on.

[00:10:56] And for grades, typically what happens, those are based off of the assignments and tests that people are doing in school.

[00:11:04] And then at the end of the semester, teachers usually calculate a percentage out of 100.

[00:11:11] So if you have a 90%, they usually translate those into a grade point average.

[00:11:16] And a pretty common scale is out of a 4.0.

[00:11:19] So 4.0 used to be perfect.

[00:11:21] That was your A.

[00:11:22] That was the best score you could get.

[00:11:23] But now with things like honors classes and advanced placement classes, sometimes they get weighted more.

[00:11:29] So you get a little extra multiplier on there.

[00:11:34] So people might have like a 4.3 or now grades have gotten up to like 4.7 out of a 4-point scale.

[00:11:41] And that 80% is people who are scoring at a 4.0 or above, which used to be a perfect.

[00:11:47] That was the best that you could get.

[00:11:48] And so it's based off of daily work and exams.

[00:11:53] And a lot of teachers have gone to giving a lot of leeway of being able to retake exams or to submit homework late or to make something up.

[00:12:03] And there's a lot of pressure from school districts to pass people and to have high grades.

[00:12:08] And so there's a lot of conflicting things going on that make those grades not as reliable as they used to be.

[00:12:14] The variance is fascinating.

[00:12:16] Yeah.

[00:12:16] I mean, yes.

[00:12:16] I'm surprised by that.

[00:12:17] Because you're based in Hawaii, aren't you?

[00:12:20] Correct.

[00:12:21] I am right now.

[00:12:21] So what's the system there?

[00:12:24] Just by way of example, one of the states.

[00:12:26] So pretty similar.

[00:12:29] And I actually, I just moved to Hawaii a few years ago.

[00:12:31] And I don't have students here.

[00:12:33] Before that, I was in Texas.

[00:12:36] And Texas is a very large state.

[00:12:37] Lots of things going on there.

[00:12:40] And everything was pretty similar to that.

[00:12:44] And especially with my Texas students, with the exams, the SAT and the ACT, there was a lot of confusion with them.

[00:12:50] And a lot of my Texas students were just like, eh, I'm not going to bother.

[00:12:53] And in different parts of the country, it was different.

[00:12:56] In places like New York or Boston, where education is really heavily emphasized, they never stopped.

[00:13:03] And they have a strong focus on those tests.

[00:13:05] But some of my Texas kids were like, eh, I'm not going to bother.

[00:13:08] Right.

[00:13:09] So in the UK, when students come to the end of high school, effectively, they will usually do a set of exams.

[00:13:17] But those exams are sort of standardized national exams.

[00:13:23] And from that, they'll get a set of grades, which will then determine, you know, where they can go next and what they can do next.

[00:13:30] So the sort of the grading aspect of that is kind of taken out of the hands of the schools and the teachers and is given to like a central authority.

[00:13:40] And it's like standardized by that authority.

[00:13:43] So that's obviously really different to what happens in the states.

[00:13:47] Does anyone ever – is there ever a call for that kind of system in individual states?

[00:13:53] Does it exist in any of the states at all or is it –

[00:13:56] I have not heard of it existing.

[00:14:00] Some states do have their own exit exam.

[00:14:04] So I believe New York has their own exit exam that you have to take.

[00:14:08] And some other states do as well.

[00:14:10] But it still doesn't have to do with grades in terms of what you're submitting to colleges.

[00:14:16] Right.

[00:14:16] Because those do come from the high schools themselves.

[00:14:21] And there – I haven't really heard a call too much for a national system.

[00:14:26] And that's what the SAT and the ACT were supposed to do.

[00:14:29] It was supposed to provide a level playing field because everybody is taking that same exam.

[00:14:34] Yeah.

[00:14:34] And one of the things that has happened – and this was kind of one of also the unintended consequences that we're just now seeing is there is always an argument about those tests that they're unfair and they're unbiased to people who come from lower socioeconomic neighborhoods and schools because they haven't received the same resources as students from wealthier districts.

[00:14:56] And so people say, oh, well, if they get a lower score on this, that test is biased against them.

[00:15:00] It's going to keep them out of schools.

[00:15:01] But what it turns out is when the colleges are doing their admissions, they look at the demographics of where people come from and they know that – so the SAT is out of 1,600.

[00:15:13] And 1,400 and above is pretty high.

[00:15:16] 1,400 is about 90-something percentile.

[00:15:19] And so at very competitive schools, most people might be at 1,400, 1,500.

[00:15:24] But students from lesser advantaged areas might only be at 1,200.

[00:15:28] And so people would say, oh, well, they're not going to get in with this 1,200.

[00:15:32] But the schools know for your school, a 1,200 is actually a really high score.

[00:15:36] And it shows that you have the ability to succeed even when you don't have the same resources as other people.

[00:15:42] And so part of the promise of doing this test optional thing was that, oh, we can make it more fair.

[00:15:48] We can increase our demographics.

[00:15:49] We can make sure a lot more groups are represented.

[00:15:53] And what has turned out is the opposite is because those kids are no longer submitting their scores.

[00:15:58] And admissions officers have come out publicly and said, if we had known that you had this score, even though it's lower than our regular average, you would have gotten in.

[00:16:08] And so people are making the wrong decisions.

[00:16:11] That's tough.

[00:16:11] Because they've introduced so much confusion.

[00:16:15] Yeah.

[00:16:16] Yeah.

[00:16:16] This is a really familiar debate as well that sort of we have in the UK, which is I think there's always this like suspicion of testing that it's like it's unfair.

[00:16:25] But often like the other things you try and do to sort of avoid the unfairness turn out to be worse.

[00:16:32] So, like, you know, the thing of like if you're basing a college admission on like someone's personal statement.

[00:16:40] So to show like a kind of rounded holistic things that often kids from the kind of higher socioeconomic backgrounds, they'll get tons of support to write that statement.

[00:16:51] Exactly.

[00:16:51] You know, and often they'll have been able to do the kinds of activities and things like that that would look good on that sort of statement.

[00:16:59] So and actually that the test, the standardized tests actually in some ways do provide like a kind of more level playing field than those other things that feel like they might be better, but actually like aren't in reality.

[00:17:14] And I have a lot of parents who come to me and their child is getting a 4.7 out of a four point scale.

[00:17:20] So they think they're top 10 percent of students and their child is scoring very average on the exams.

[00:17:26] And they say, well, what's happening? My child's not average.

[00:17:28] It turns out, yeah, they kind of are.

[00:17:30] They're right in the middle, but they don't have a good sense of that because the grades are so divorced from reality that they don't necessarily mean anything.

[00:17:39] And that is an unhappy surprise for a lot of parents and students to find out like, yeah, actually you are just kind of a middle level student.

[00:17:47] Are children tested earlier, like in a more standardized way, earlier on in high school or middle school?

[00:17:55] What comes before these exams?

[00:17:58] So typically most of the states have their own state exams and those are given at different frequencies.

[00:18:04] So a lot of students will start in elementary school, which is ages about 5 to 10.

[00:18:10] And they get some standardized exams and those are really their state standards.

[00:18:15] So they're looking to see that they're meeting the requirements that they need to.

[00:18:20] And those usually aren't tied to, they aren't tied to like passing from grade to grade usually.

[00:18:26] In some states they are, but generally not anymore.

[00:18:30] And they don't show up on people's report cards, but they, kids are used to taking those tests every couple of years.

[00:18:37] And different states do different things, but usually every few years.

[00:18:40] So most of the students have taken some kind of standardized test before they get to these ones.

[00:18:46] And what do these tests typically cover?

[00:18:49] What sort of areas of knowledge and skill are they focusing on generally?

[00:18:55] Yeah, so it's a fairly narrow focus for them.

[00:18:59] So for the SAT, that one has two different sections on it.

[00:19:03] There's a reading and writing section and a math section.

[00:19:05] And for the reading and writing, it's a combination of reading comprehension questions.

[00:19:10] So passages with questions.

[00:19:12] There's some vocabulary on it.

[00:19:14] There's some grammar.

[00:19:16] So being able to use periods and semicolons and dashes and things correctly.

[00:19:20] And then the math is typically, there's some basic arithmetic.

[00:19:25] There's pre-algebra and algebra, a little bit of geometry, a little algebra too,

[00:19:30] and some pre-calculus and trigonometry.

[00:19:33] But it's a fairly narrow focus of math skills.

[00:19:37] And then the ACT is very similar.

[00:19:39] It's got all of those things on it.

[00:19:41] And then it also has a science section.

[00:19:43] But the science section is kind of strange because it is about science,

[00:19:46] but you don't really need to know science to do it.

[00:19:49] So what they do is they give you experiments with charts and graphs,

[00:19:53] and it's largely data interpretation.

[00:19:55] So it's more of a reading and data section that is based in science,

[00:19:59] but you don't have to know chemistry formulas.

[00:20:02] You don't have to know physics formulas, that sort of thing.

[00:20:04] They're all quite narrow, aren't they?

[00:20:05] That's really interesting.

[00:20:07] And that's it.

[00:20:08] No history.

[00:20:09] Yeah.

[00:20:09] No, nothing else.

[00:20:11] No hard science.

[00:20:12] So if you were a student who was looking to get into a top university,

[00:20:17] like an Ivy League university,

[00:20:18] and you were a really exceptionally highly literate student,

[00:20:24] and you were great at history,

[00:20:27] and maybe you were fantastic,

[00:20:29] some other kind of humanities subject,

[00:20:32] but you were absolutely not very good at maths,

[00:20:38] are you going to really struggle

[00:20:39] because you're going to struggle to get a good SAT school,

[00:20:42] to get into that top school?

[00:20:45] Yes.

[00:20:45] I would have hated that.

[00:20:47] Yeah, because the math,

[00:20:49] especially on the SAT,

[00:20:50] on the SAT the math is half of your grade,

[00:20:52] and on the ACT it's a quarter of your grade.

[00:20:55] And there are other tests that people do.

[00:21:00] So there's also something called advanced placement,

[00:21:02] test,

[00:21:04] which are AP tests is the abbreviation for those.

[00:21:07] And so a lot of schools will teach AP classes,

[00:21:09] and they're supposed to be like college,

[00:21:11] university level classes,

[00:21:13] but that are taught in the high school.

[00:21:15] And there is an exam you can take the end of those.

[00:21:18] Right.

[00:21:18] And what those exams are usually used for

[00:21:21] is to get course credit at the college or university that you go to.

[00:21:25] So if you get a certain score on it,

[00:21:27] you might be able,

[00:21:28] so it's out of five.

[00:21:29] If you get a five on the English exam,

[00:21:32] you might be able to not take one of your English classes.

[00:21:35] You get credit for it.

[00:21:35] I see.

[00:21:36] And so those aren't necessarily used for admissions.

[00:21:39] You submit them at the time of your application,

[00:21:42] but it is another way to show some of the places

[00:21:44] that you might have really strong skills.

[00:21:47] Okay.

[00:21:47] That's interesting.

[00:21:48] So you can sort of,

[00:21:49] so it seems to me like almost like a lot,

[00:21:52] well, not a lot,

[00:21:53] but some of the testing is kind of like optional,

[00:21:56] and it sort of,

[00:21:58] it kind of enhances your application, right?

[00:22:01] To show these things.

[00:22:03] Exactly.

[00:22:03] You've got these scores on your,

[00:22:07] and you can put them on your form.

[00:22:08] Yeah.

[00:22:08] So it's not sufficient for admission,

[00:22:11] but it can bolster your application

[00:22:13] and it can help you to get course credit

[00:22:16] so that you don't have to take as many classes,

[00:22:17] which can get you out of there earlier,

[00:22:19] or you don't have to pay as much tuition,

[00:22:21] which in the US is a big deal.

[00:22:23] So if you,

[00:22:24] so like for me,

[00:22:25] I got a five on my English exam

[00:22:27] and I didn't have,

[00:22:27] I got out of three English classes in college

[00:22:30] and I was able to,

[00:22:31] I was able to finish a whole semester early,

[00:22:33] which saved me an entire semester of tuition,

[00:22:35] which was,

[00:22:36] was a big deal.

[00:22:37] Yeah.

[00:22:37] And so there are also those,

[00:22:40] those kinds of tests as well.

[00:22:42] That's amazing.

[00:22:42] That's amazing.

[00:22:43] Can you tell us Kelly a bit about

[00:22:45] how the tests are actually administered?

[00:22:47] Like how you,

[00:22:48] how you sit a test?

[00:22:50] Like what,

[00:22:50] what's the environment?

[00:22:51] Do you basically have people like John?

[00:22:54] Do you have people organizing?

[00:22:55] Who organize exams in high schools?

[00:22:58] Yeah.

[00:22:59] So typically the tests are given through the schools,

[00:23:01] usually on weekends.

[00:23:03] They're usually on Saturdays.

[00:23:05] And right now.

[00:23:06] That sounds awful.

[00:23:08] That wouldn't go down well here.

[00:23:11] And the SAT,

[00:23:14] it just in this past year,

[00:23:15] in March of this year,

[00:23:16] it switched from a paper and pencil exam

[00:23:18] to a digital exam.

[00:23:19] So it is now given on the computer

[00:23:20] and people have to bring their own devices.

[00:23:23] So you either need a laptop

[00:23:25] or an iPad

[00:23:26] or a tablet to take it.

[00:23:28] And so everybody comes to the school on Saturday.

[00:23:31] You have to register for it.

[00:23:32] There's a registration site for SAT.

[00:23:34] You go and register.

[00:23:35] And then everybody comes on Saturday

[00:23:37] and they put people in classrooms.

[00:23:38] They put people in the gym

[00:23:39] and the cafeteria.

[00:23:41] And with,

[00:23:42] they do now bring their own devices.

[00:23:44] And there's a proctor

[00:23:45] who gives the instructions

[00:23:47] and then people work on it.

[00:23:49] And then it takes a couple hours

[00:23:50] and then they leave.

[00:23:51] Yeah.

[00:23:51] And the ACT is similar,

[00:23:54] but it's still a paper and pencil exam.

[00:23:56] So the proctors are passing out a booklet

[00:23:58] for them to take it on.

[00:23:59] They do the Scantron sheet

[00:24:00] with little bubbles in the circles.

[00:24:03] And there is actually a big problem right now.

[00:24:05] This has especially been exacerbated

[00:24:08] in the last five years.

[00:24:10] People are having a hard time finding test sites.

[00:24:12] It used to be not a big deal.

[00:24:13] The schools had them set up.

[00:24:14] They did it.

[00:24:15] It was no big deal.

[00:24:15] And a lot of the schools

[00:24:17] are backing out of it now

[00:24:18] because they can't find people,

[00:24:20] they can't find teachers

[00:24:21] to staff them on the weekends.

[00:24:22] It doesn't pay very well.

[00:24:24] The logistics are just kind of a nightmare.

[00:24:26] Yeah.

[00:24:27] In parts of the country

[00:24:27] where it's really hot or cold,

[00:24:29] they may not want to run

[00:24:30] the air conditioning or the heating

[00:24:31] on that weekend day,

[00:24:33] depending on what time of year it is.

[00:24:35] And so there's a big problem right now

[00:24:37] that people aren't able to find test sites.

[00:24:39] And there are people

[00:24:40] who are flying to other states

[00:24:42] who are driving hours

[00:24:43] to take tests other places.

[00:24:45] And that does not help

[00:24:47] the argument about equality.

[00:24:48] Yeah, yeah.

[00:24:49] No, not at all.

[00:24:49] If you're having to fly

[00:24:50] and stay in a hotel overnight,

[00:24:53] that's not a fair,

[00:24:54] that really isn't a fair playing field at all.

[00:24:57] And so they're trying to find,

[00:24:59] the testing companies

[00:25:00] are trying to find solutions.

[00:25:01] So they're,

[00:25:02] I think right now,

[00:25:02] some of them are talking to universities

[00:25:04] to see if they could partner with them

[00:25:06] or with some other community sites

[00:25:07] because they got to figure out a way to do this.

[00:25:10] Why is it done at the weekends?

[00:25:12] What's the reason for that?

[00:25:13] Um, because not all students take it.

[00:25:16] And so I think they can't really put it

[00:25:18] during the school day

[00:25:19] because they can't tie up school resources

[00:25:21] because they need the classrooms.

[00:25:23] They need the library.

[00:25:24] They need the teachers.

[00:25:25] Yeah.

[00:25:25] It's optional.

[00:25:27] Uh-huh.

[00:25:27] And so,

[00:25:28] and some schools do have an in-school test date

[00:25:31] that's becoming a little bit more popular,

[00:25:34] but it's not all of them.

[00:25:36] And I wouldn't say it's even a majority.

[00:25:37] Okay.

[00:25:39] Because of the system we have here,

[00:25:42] the sort of national system we have here,

[00:25:43] the results that students get in their examinations,

[00:25:47] how they, you know,

[00:25:48] the schools they get,

[00:25:49] are used to evaluate,

[00:25:52] partially to use to evaluate

[00:25:54] the performance of schools themselves.

[00:25:56] So to say, you know,

[00:25:57] this school's doing well,

[00:25:58] this school isn't doing so well,

[00:25:59] this school's providing a good academic grounding,

[00:26:02] this one isn't.

[00:26:03] Um, what,

[00:26:04] what's the mechanism in the States

[00:26:07] for kind of evaluating school performance?

[00:26:11] Um,

[00:26:13] so those,

[00:26:14] those test scores are a metric.

[00:26:16] Um,

[00:26:17] they also look at graduation rates

[00:26:18] is another big one.

[00:26:19] So how many people are,

[00:26:21] are actually getting their diploma?

[00:26:23] Um,

[00:26:24] and those,

[00:26:24] those are the two big ones

[00:26:25] that,

[00:26:26] that I've seen mostly

[00:26:27] when they're talking about schools.

[00:26:28] And then also sometimes

[00:26:29] we'll talk about demographics as well.

[00:26:30] And that's not really about performance,

[00:26:32] but,

[00:26:32] you can,

[00:26:33] you can see that.

[00:26:34] Sorry, Kelly,

[00:26:34] can I just jump in?

[00:26:35] If,

[00:26:35] if the,

[00:26:36] um,

[00:26:37] school,

[00:26:37] if,

[00:26:37] if one of the metrics

[00:26:38] is graduation rates,

[00:26:41] but it's the school

[00:26:42] that effectively

[00:26:43] has control

[00:26:44] over whether a school,

[00:26:45] a student graduates,

[00:26:47] isn't there a big incentive

[00:26:48] in that system

[00:26:49] to put students

[00:26:51] through to graduate

[00:26:52] even if they haven't met

[00:26:53] a standard?

[00:26:54] Yes.

[00:26:55] Is that right?

[00:26:55] Okay.

[00:26:56] Absolutely.

[00:26:57] Yes.

[00:26:57] And so that problem

[00:26:59] we were talking about earlier

[00:27:00] with grades

[00:27:02] is a huge incentive

[00:27:03] to make sure

[00:27:04] that people pass

[00:27:05] because,

[00:27:06] and part of the other problem

[00:27:08] with that too

[00:27:08] is the state funding.

[00:27:10] So schools get funding

[00:27:11] from the state.

[00:27:12] State funding

[00:27:12] is also tied

[00:27:13] to graduation rates.

[00:27:14] And so there is a giant

[00:27:16] conflict of interest here.

[00:27:18] And that's why those tests

[00:27:19] have been so important

[00:27:20] is because the grades

[00:27:23] have a whole lot of things

[00:27:24] that go into it

[00:27:25] that have nothing to do

[00:27:26] with actually education

[00:27:28] and what kids are learning.

[00:27:30] That's so,

[00:27:31] that's really,

[00:27:32] really fascinating.

[00:27:32] So interesting.

[00:27:33] Because there is,

[00:27:33] there's some obvious benefits

[00:27:35] to having a system like that

[00:27:36] because I think sometimes

[00:27:37] our system is seen

[00:27:38] as being a bit,

[00:27:39] almost like a bit

[00:27:40] too robotic.

[00:27:42] You know,

[00:27:42] like it's like,

[00:27:43] there's so many

[00:27:44] kind of standardized

[00:27:45] measures

[00:27:46] that you have to meet

[00:27:48] all the way

[00:27:48] through the system.

[00:27:50] And that,

[00:27:50] I think in some respects

[00:27:52] that can,

[00:27:52] you know,

[00:27:53] be restrictive

[00:27:53] of an education system.

[00:27:55] But on the other hand,

[00:27:57] I guess the flip side

[00:27:57] of that,

[00:27:58] maybe what you're saying

[00:27:59] at times

[00:28:00] in the states

[00:28:01] is that like,

[00:28:03] there's not

[00:28:03] enough standardization

[00:28:05] that,

[00:28:06] you know.

[00:28:06] Yeah.

[00:28:07] And there's basically none.

[00:28:08] So all the states

[00:28:09] have free reign

[00:28:09] to do what they want.

[00:28:11] The individual cities

[00:28:12] have large reign.

[00:28:13] And there are standards

[00:28:15] for the state,

[00:28:15] for each state,

[00:28:16] like they say,

[00:28:17] okay,

[00:28:17] these are the things

[00:28:18] you should cover.

[00:28:19] But within that,

[00:28:20] you have freedom.

[00:28:21] The teachers have freedom

[00:28:22] to cover it

[00:28:23] in the way that they wish.

[00:28:24] Would the state authorities

[00:28:25] ever go in and say

[00:28:26] you're putting,

[00:28:27] you're graduating

[00:28:28] too many students?

[00:28:29] Like the students

[00:28:30] aren't meeting

[00:28:31] at a high enough level

[00:28:32] for you to be graduating?

[00:28:35] I suspect not.

[00:28:36] I've never,

[00:28:37] I've never heard of that.

[00:28:39] Just because

[00:28:40] it makes them look,

[00:28:41] you want your state

[00:28:42] to look good

[00:28:43] and so they're,

[00:28:44] you know,

[00:28:44] they're not going to be like,

[00:28:45] hey, actually.

[00:28:46] And honestly,

[00:28:47] the education system

[00:28:48] is falling apart

[00:28:50] in a lot of ways right now.

[00:28:51] And it already was,

[00:28:53] but there is a big crisis

[00:28:54] right now in US education

[00:28:56] with standards

[00:28:57] and what kids are learning.

[00:28:59] Yeah.

[00:28:59] And that whole equality issue,

[00:29:02] isn't it?

[00:29:03] Yeah.

[00:29:03] I can see that.

[00:29:04] That must be pretty concerning.

[00:29:06] Something that's really different

[00:29:08] between our systems

[00:29:09] from what I know

[00:29:09] from working with students

[00:29:10] from your areas.

[00:29:12] So the colleges

[00:29:13] and the universities,

[00:29:14] there's just such a wide range

[00:29:16] of what they're looking for

[00:29:18] and who they admit.

[00:29:19] And you never really know

[00:29:21] what your chances are

[00:29:22] at any kind of school.

[00:29:24] So I know with your system,

[00:29:25] sometimes like you're

[00:29:26] on those national exams

[00:29:27] that does help dictate

[00:29:28] where you can go,

[00:29:29] right?

[00:29:29] Yeah.

[00:29:30] Yeah.

[00:29:30] Yeah.

[00:29:31] And it's just,

[00:29:32] it's not the same at all.

[00:29:33] And so the high level schools,

[00:29:36] the Ivy Leagues,

[00:29:36] the Harvards and the Yales

[00:29:37] and the Princetons,

[00:29:38] you do have to have

[00:29:39] very high test scores

[00:29:40] to go there.

[00:29:41] And at a certain point,

[00:29:42] like SAT is out of 1600.

[00:29:44] Most people who get admitted there

[00:29:46] will probably have a 1550 or above,

[00:29:48] not everybody.

[00:29:49] But once you get to a certain score,

[00:29:51] it's kind of like,

[00:29:51] all right,

[00:29:52] everybody's at that score.

[00:29:53] So it doesn't really matter anymore.

[00:29:54] It's expected.

[00:29:55] It doesn't, yeah.

[00:29:55] Yeah.

[00:29:56] Like that's kind of the baseline thing

[00:29:58] of, yep,

[00:29:58] you got a check mark of,

[00:29:59] okay, you're a good test taker now.

[00:30:00] Let's look at everything else.

[00:30:02] And because so many people apply

[00:30:05] and there's so few spots

[00:30:06] in those kinds of schools,

[00:30:08] you really never know

[00:30:10] what your chances are

[00:30:11] to get into any high level school.

[00:30:14] Even if you have,

[00:30:15] even if you have a perfect SAT score

[00:30:16] and you have all the extracurriculars

[00:30:18] and you've cured cancer

[00:30:19] and you've done these amazing things,

[00:30:20] like you just don't know.

[00:30:22] And because so many more people

[00:30:24] apply to those schools right now

[00:30:25] because of the changing test policies,

[00:30:28] people who should have been

[00:30:30] a shoe in five years ago

[00:30:31] no longer are.

[00:30:33] Yeah.

[00:30:33] And so those high level kids,

[00:30:36] there's a whole lot of uncertainty

[00:30:37] that there didn't used to be

[00:30:38] because there are kids

[00:30:40] who are applying

[00:30:40] to 10 high level schools

[00:30:42] and they are perfectly qualified

[00:30:43] and they're not getting

[00:30:44] into any of them.

[00:30:45] Yeah.

[00:30:45] And that didn't used to happen.

[00:30:48] But at the other schools,

[00:30:49] there's so,

[00:30:50] I mean,

[00:30:50] there are thousands of universities,

[00:30:52] I think several thousand

[00:30:53] in the US.

[00:30:54] And so there are places

[00:30:56] for everybody

[00:30:57] and there's those really

[00:30:59] highly competitive ones

[00:31:00] and then there's also ones

[00:31:01] that will admit pretty much

[00:31:03] anybody who wants to go.

[00:31:04] Yeah.

[00:31:04] And then everywhere

[00:31:05] in the middle as well.

[00:31:07] And so sometimes people

[00:31:08] get really discouraged

[00:31:09] and they're like,

[00:31:09] well, my test scores aren't very high

[00:31:10] so it's going to keep me out of this

[00:31:11] and I can't do that.

[00:31:12] And that's not really true either.

[00:31:14] Pretty,

[00:31:15] if you want to go to college,

[00:31:16] likely you can find somewhere

[00:31:18] that you can go for it.

[00:31:21] It might just not be

[00:31:22] where you want to go

[00:31:22] or where you've been working.

[00:31:24] It might not be where you want to.

[00:31:25] Yeah.

[00:31:26] But what I always think too

[00:31:28] is sometimes kids

[00:31:28] are really focused on

[00:31:29] I have to go to this school

[00:31:30] or, you know,

[00:31:32] it's not worth it

[00:31:32] and what was all this for?

[00:31:33] And I honestly think

[00:31:34] you can get a good education

[00:31:36] at most places.

[00:31:37] Like a lot of it

[00:31:38] is what you put into it.

[00:31:39] Yeah.

[00:31:39] Some places are truly

[00:31:41] not the right fit

[00:31:41] but what people find

[00:31:43] is once they get to a school,

[00:31:44] most of the time

[00:31:45] they realize,

[00:31:46] oh, this is fine.

[00:31:47] And most of the time it is.

[00:31:50] Do employers ever ask

[00:31:53] about test scores?

[00:31:56] Is that something?

[00:31:56] Test scores?

[00:31:57] There's occasionally

[00:32:00] and there are some industries

[00:32:01] that people do

[00:32:03] some of the more math oriented ones

[00:32:04] they might

[00:32:05] but mostly they just want to see

[00:32:06] do you have a diploma

[00:32:07] from a university?

[00:32:09] That tends to be

[00:32:10] the more important thing

[00:32:11] that you have graduated

[00:32:13] but there are places

[00:32:14] that may ask for it

[00:32:16] but typically not

[00:32:17] after an entry level job.

[00:32:18] Yeah.

[00:32:19] Yeah.

[00:32:19] Because I mean

[00:32:21] like in the UK

[00:32:22] it's like

[00:32:22] your exam results

[00:32:24] go with you everywhere

[00:32:25] pretty much

[00:32:26] and I think that's

[00:32:27] one of the things

[00:32:27] one of the other

[00:32:29] sort of criticisms

[00:32:29] I think people have

[00:32:30] is like

[00:32:30] that they're too defining

[00:32:32] in this country.

[00:32:33] It's like

[00:32:34] if you've done well

[00:32:36] in your GCSE exams

[00:32:39] which are the ones

[00:32:39] you do at 16

[00:32:40] or your A levels

[00:32:41] that you do at 18

[00:32:43] those

[00:32:43] sorry

[00:32:44] I'm sure you know

[00:32:45] all this

[00:32:46] but they probably

[00:32:49] they sort of follow you

[00:32:50] around those results

[00:32:51] you know

[00:32:52] you have to give them

[00:32:52] I did not know that

[00:32:53] that's interesting

[00:32:54] You have to give them

[00:32:54] to employers

[00:32:55] you have to provide

[00:32:56] your certificates

[00:32:57] when you apply for a job

[00:32:58] and things like that

[00:32:59] You put it on application forms

[00:33:01] Yeah.

[00:33:01] Lots of

[00:33:02] Yeah no

[00:33:02] we don't typically do that

[00:33:05] Yeah it's interesting

[00:33:06] it seems to me

[00:33:08] that it has a different

[00:33:09] level of state

[00:33:10] like status

[00:33:10] within the system

[00:33:11] that's maybe

[00:33:12] it's not

[00:33:13] it's not as important

[00:33:14] in the US system

[00:33:15] And I think

[00:33:16] you described it

[00:33:17] as being holistic

[00:33:18] the kind of approach

[00:33:19] at the moment

[00:33:20] I guess our application

[00:33:21] stuff is less holistic

[00:33:23] like you do write

[00:33:24] personal statements

[00:33:25] Yeah

[00:33:26] but they're kind of

[00:33:26] just a personal statement

[00:33:28] you know

[00:33:28] they're a bit different

[00:33:29] One thing that's interesting

[00:33:30] I think

[00:33:31] is like

[00:33:31] you know

[00:33:32] the whole

[00:33:32] Oxford and Cambridge

[00:33:33] thing

[00:33:34] of like

[00:33:35] so

[00:33:36] Oxford and Cambridge

[00:33:37] universities

[00:33:37] have both had

[00:33:38] like a big drive

[00:33:39] to get more students

[00:33:40] who go to

[00:33:41] state schools

[00:33:42] so like

[00:33:43] the publicly funded

[00:33:44] schools

[00:33:44] rather than

[00:33:46] the you know

[00:33:47] kind of private

[00:33:48] schools

[00:33:50] and

[00:33:50] one of the things

[00:33:51] that they sort of

[00:33:52] identified as being

[00:33:53] an issue

[00:33:54] was that too much

[00:33:55] weight was being

[00:33:55] put on the interview

[00:33:57] because the interview

[00:33:58] you know

[00:33:58] you can imagine

[00:33:59] you turn up

[00:33:59] at Oxford and Cambridge

[00:34:00] and it's this very

[00:34:01] intimidating environment

[00:34:02] and you know

[00:34:04] you've got

[00:34:04] some kind of

[00:34:05] crusty old Don

[00:34:06] who's you know

[00:34:07] an expert

[00:34:09] in philosophy

[00:34:10] and whatever

[00:34:10] and it's like

[00:34:11] you know

[00:34:11] and for kids

[00:34:13] who have come

[00:34:13] from you know

[00:34:14] the top private

[00:34:14] schools

[00:34:15] they can navigate

[00:34:16] that situation

[00:34:17] much more easily

[00:34:18] because they may

[00:34:18] have already

[00:34:19] been exposed

[00:34:19] to it in their

[00:34:20] lives

[00:34:20] whereas kids

[00:34:21] coming from

[00:34:24] lower socioeconomic

[00:34:26] groups might find

[00:34:27] that more difficult

[00:34:28] so actually

[00:34:28] that resulted

[00:34:29] in like a move

[00:34:30] towards actually

[00:34:31] we're going to

[00:34:31] focus more on

[00:34:32] grades

[00:34:32] because

[00:34:33] if we focus

[00:34:35] on grades

[00:34:35] at least

[00:34:35] that's kind

[00:34:36] of like

[00:34:36] we know

[00:34:36] that the

[00:34:37] students have

[00:34:37] all sat

[00:34:38] the exams

[00:34:38] under the

[00:34:39] same conditions

[00:34:40] you know

[00:34:41] rather than

[00:34:41] it being this

[00:34:42] so it's sort of

[00:34:43] back and forth

[00:34:44] a bit I think

[00:34:44] in this country

[00:34:45] doesn't it

[00:34:45] between looking

[00:34:47] at what's

[00:34:47] important

[00:34:47] and I think

[00:34:48] some universities

[00:34:49] have gone to

[00:34:50] no personal

[00:34:51] statement now

[00:34:52] as well

[00:34:53] yeah

[00:34:54] I think there

[00:34:55] are some

[00:34:55] universities

[00:34:55] where

[00:34:56] or even

[00:34:57] like the

[00:34:57] whole body

[00:34:58] that

[00:34:59] that organises

[00:35:00] students going

[00:35:01] to university

[00:35:02] yeah

[00:35:02] has got rid

[00:35:03] of personal

[00:35:03] statements

[00:35:04] I think

[00:35:04] so it is

[00:35:05] basically now

[00:35:06] just your

[00:35:06] grades

[00:35:08] that determine

[00:35:09] whether you

[00:35:10] get the

[00:35:10] place or not

[00:35:11] yeah

[00:35:11] yeah

[00:35:11] interest is

[00:35:12] like the

[00:35:13] opposite

[00:35:13] yeah

[00:35:14] who knew

[00:35:15] that

[00:35:16] had no

[00:35:16] idea

[00:35:17] fascinating

[00:35:17] yeah

[00:35:18] yeah

[00:35:18] I'm gonna

[00:35:19] have to

[00:35:19] fact check

[00:35:20] all of what

[00:35:20] I just

[00:35:20] said

[00:35:24] no I'm

[00:35:25] sure I'm

[00:35:26] sure that's

[00:35:26] the case

[00:35:27] I'm sure

[00:35:27] I read

[00:35:27] that recently

[00:35:28] yeah

[00:35:29] and can we

[00:35:30] just ask you

[00:35:31] about Hawaii

[00:35:31] Kelly just

[00:35:32] because it's

[00:35:32] really interesting

[00:35:33] because I've

[00:35:33] only spoken

[00:35:34] to people who

[00:35:34] were in the

[00:35:35] south of

[00:35:36] England today

[00:35:37] and it's

[00:35:37] been quite

[00:35:37] boring

[00:35:38] so yeah

[00:35:39] can you just

[00:35:39] tell me about

[00:35:40] Hawaii

[00:35:40] just like what

[00:35:41] your days

[00:35:42] could be like

[00:35:42] what it's

[00:35:43] like today

[00:35:43] the weather

[00:35:44] yeah sure

[00:35:45] that sort of

[00:35:45] thing

[00:35:46] be nice to

[00:35:47] know

[00:35:47] so I'm

[00:35:47] I'm in the

[00:35:48] middle of

[00:35:49] the ocean

[00:35:49] very far

[00:35:50] away from

[00:35:50] anything else

[00:35:51] and it's

[00:35:53] about a

[00:35:54] five to

[00:35:55] six hour

[00:35:55] flight to

[00:35:56] California

[00:35:57] which is

[00:35:57] the

[00:35:57] mainland

[00:35:58] it's

[00:35:59] closest state

[00:36:00] to reach

[00:36:01] from here

[00:36:01] so very

[00:36:02] isolated

[00:36:03] but very

[00:36:05] nice

[00:36:05] I live on

[00:36:05] the island

[00:36:06] of Maui

[00:36:06] and it's

[00:36:07] pretty small

[00:36:07] you can drive

[00:36:08] across the

[00:36:08] whole island

[00:36:09] in about

[00:36:09] an hour and

[00:36:09] a half

[00:36:10] which by

[00:36:11] US standards

[00:36:11] pretty small

[00:36:12] versus where

[00:36:13] when I lived

[00:36:14] in Texas

[00:36:15] Texas is

[00:36:16] very big

[00:36:16] you can drive

[00:36:17] for an entire

[00:36:17] day and still

[00:36:18] be in the

[00:36:19] state and

[00:36:20] not leave

[00:36:20] so that's

[00:36:21] been an

[00:36:21] adjustment

[00:36:22] and it's

[00:36:23] the island

[00:36:24] that I'm

[00:36:24] on is

[00:36:25] somewhat

[00:36:26] rural

[00:36:27] we've got

[00:36:28] a town

[00:36:29] with you know

[00:36:30] buildings and

[00:36:30] things and

[00:36:31] it's sort of

[00:36:31] a downtown

[00:36:32] but mostly

[00:36:33] we're just

[00:36:33] little rural

[00:36:34] towns and

[00:36:34] there's chickens

[00:36:35] that run

[00:36:35] around everywhere

[00:36:36] so when you

[00:36:36] go to the

[00:36:37] grocery store

[00:36:37] when I go

[00:36:38] to yoga

[00:36:39] there's always

[00:36:39] chickens

[00:36:39] with their

[00:36:40] babies

[00:36:40] walking around

[00:36:41] and everything

[00:36:43] shuts down

[00:36:44] very early

[00:36:44] so pretty

[00:36:45] much most

[00:36:46] stuff is

[00:36:46] closed by

[00:36:46] 8 o'clock

[00:36:47] at night

[00:36:47] and everybody

[00:36:48] goes to bed

[00:36:49] very early

[00:36:49] and so I

[00:36:50] usually am in

[00:36:51] bed by

[00:36:51] 8 30 or

[00:36:52] 9 which is

[00:36:53] pretty shocking

[00:36:53] 5 15

[00:36:55] when the

[00:36:56] when the

[00:36:57] roosters

[00:36:57] start crowing

[00:37:00] and it's

[00:37:01] tricky because

[00:37:01] the time zones

[00:37:02] are so different

[00:37:03] from the rest

[00:37:04] of the US

[00:37:04] so I'm

[00:37:05] six hours

[00:37:06] behind the

[00:37:07] eastern coast

[00:37:08] of US

[00:37:08] I'm three

[00:37:09] hours behind

[00:37:09] California

[00:37:10] and so it

[00:37:11] makes it

[00:37:11] tricky to

[00:37:12] coordinate

[00:37:13] business

[00:37:13] and personal

[00:37:14] life

[00:37:15] and talking

[00:37:15] to my

[00:37:16] family

[00:37:17] but it

[00:37:18] also works

[00:37:18] really well

[00:37:19] for me

[00:37:19] because I

[00:37:19] can see

[00:37:20] I can work

[00:37:21] with students

[00:37:21] across the

[00:37:22] whole US

[00:37:22] in their

[00:37:23] evening

[00:37:24] and it's

[00:37:24] still my

[00:37:25] daytime

[00:37:25] which is

[00:37:26] awesome

[00:37:26] absolutely

[00:37:28] weather is

[00:37:29] very nice

[00:37:29] I live right

[00:37:30] by the

[00:37:30] ocean

[00:37:31] got a

[00:37:31] volcano

[00:37:32] out my

[00:37:32] window

[00:37:32] it's

[00:37:33] great

[00:37:33] so my

[00:37:41] website

[00:37:41] is

[00:37:42] www.inhouse

[00:37:44] it's

[00:37:44] I-N-H-O-U-S-E

[00:37:47] test prep

[00:37:47] so all one

[00:37:48] word

[00:37:48] inhouse

[00:37:49] test prep

[00:37:49] dot com

[00:37:50] and I've

[00:37:51] got information

[00:37:51] about my

[00:37:52] services

[00:37:52] about the

[00:37:53] tests on

[00:37:53] there

[00:37:53] I always

[00:37:54] offer a

[00:37:55] free

[00:37:55] consultation

[00:37:55] I'm always

[00:37:56] happy to

[00:37:56] talk to

[00:37:56] people if

[00:37:57] they've got

[00:37:57] questions about

[00:37:58] things

[00:37:58] and one

[00:37:59] thing that I

[00:38:00] did want to

[00:38:00] mention too

[00:38:01] that I

[00:38:01] forgot to

[00:38:02] mention

[00:38:02] is that

[00:38:03] one of the

[00:38:03] other things

[00:38:04] that the

[00:38:04] test scores

[00:38:05] are sometimes

[00:38:05] used for

[00:38:06] is for

[00:38:06] scholarships

[00:38:07] and so

[00:38:08] separate from

[00:38:09] admissions

[00:38:10] you also may

[00:38:12] want to take

[00:38:12] a test

[00:38:12] because

[00:38:13] even the

[00:38:13] schools that

[00:38:14] are test

[00:38:14] optional

[00:38:15] sometimes

[00:38:15] they're still

[00:38:16] basing their

[00:38:16] scholarships

[00:38:17] their merit-based

[00:38:18] scholarships

[00:38:18] on test

[00:38:19] scores

[00:38:19] and various

[00:38:20] things

[00:38:20] so for

[00:38:21] most students

[00:38:22] it's worth

[00:38:22] taking the

[00:38:23] test

[00:38:23] even if

[00:38:24] they're not

[00:38:24] sure if

[00:38:25] they're going

[00:38:25] to submit

[00:38:25] them or

[00:38:25] need them

[00:38:26] but because

[00:38:26] it may be

[00:38:27] tied to

[00:38:27] money as

[00:38:28] well as

[00:38:28] admissions

[00:38:29] thank you

[00:38:30] so much

[00:38:30] Kelly

[00:38:30] we've learned

[00:38:31] such a huge

[00:38:33] amount in

[00:38:33] such a small

[00:38:34] amount of

[00:38:34] time it's

[00:38:35] been absolutely

[00:38:35] fantastic to

[00:38:36] talk to you

[00:38:37] thanks for

[00:38:37] having me on

[00:38:46] okay quick

[00:38:47] fact check on

[00:38:48] what I said

[00:38:48] about UCAS

[00:38:49] and UK

[00:38:50] universities

[00:38:51] because we do

[00:38:52] like to be

[00:38:52] accurate on this

[00:38:53] podcast

[00:38:53] so I said

[00:38:55] that I thought

[00:38:56] that UCAS

[00:38:57] were getting

[00:38:57] rid of their

[00:38:58] personal statement

[00:38:59] for university

[00:39:00] applications

[00:39:01] that's not

[00:39:02] quite right

[00:39:03] so what

[00:39:03] they're actually

[00:39:04] going to be

[00:39:04] doing is

[00:39:05] reforming

[00:39:06] that process

[00:39:08] so from

[00:39:09] September 2025

[00:39:10] rather than

[00:39:11] students having

[00:39:11] an open-ended

[00:39:12] personal statement

[00:39:13] they'll all be

[00:39:14] given three

[00:39:15] kind of structured

[00:39:16] questions to

[00:39:17] answer

[00:39:17] I think the

[00:39:18] idea is to

[00:39:19] kind of

[00:39:19] make it a bit

[00:39:20] more standardised

[00:39:21] and kind of

[00:39:23] thereby try and

[00:39:24] level the

[00:39:24] playing field

[00:39:25] and make it

[00:39:25] a bit fairer

[00:39:29] thank you so

[00:39:30] much for listening

[00:39:31] to the exam

[00:39:31] man podcast

[00:39:32] we really

[00:39:32] really appreciate

[00:39:33] your support

[00:39:34] remember that

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[00:39:40] and we will

[00:39:41] catch you next

[00:39:42] time

[00:39:42] you