Exams In Universities: King's College London

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I've only met the team for two weeks but a lot of them seem to be into theatre, don't

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_04]: they, Karam? Yes, yes. Yeah, they really do. But to be fair, their announcements are spot

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_04]: on. They're fantastic!

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_04]: As soon as we said it was the listening exam, it was the one thing that freaked my invigilators

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_04]: out the most, you know, and I was like, you just press play. So it was that simple.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So today we've got a really cracking interview, haven't we John? Yeah, yeah, it's awesome. So

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_07]: we are going to be speaking to Karam Williams and Jess Price who are both exam managers at

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_07]: Kings College London. So this is an episode all about exams in universities. We particularly

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_07]: wanted to talk to Karam and Jess because not only are they running exams in universities

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_07]: but they had also both previously been exams officers in schools and they both quite recently

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_07]: moved into the job in universities. So they've got tons of insight into all the kind of

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_07]: differences and similarities and it's been really interesting to hear how they've

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_07]: used their expertise that they've built up in schools to kind of inform the way

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_07]: they run university exams. Yeah, so a really fun conversation. It was and it was really

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting. Yeah, yeah. We'd really like to hear a little bit about your journey to run an

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: exams in universities, how you've ended up doing that. So Karam, could we start with you

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_04]: to hear about how you've ended up where you are? So I mean, I was working in exams in

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_04]: schools for around about seven years and I enjoyed it. I liked kind of the organisation

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_04]: of it and everything like that but then found it was becoming, you know, with

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_04]: rules and everything changing all the time and the pressures that we were under as exam

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_04]: officers. And I just felt I wanted a bit of a change. I was kind of falling out of love

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_04]: with exams and wanted a kind of change and to be honest, I'd never even thought about

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_04]: going into higher education examinations. It wasn't something that I was like, oh,

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, this is something I'm interested in doing and to be honest, a post came

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_04]: available in King's College and I was like, oh, that sounds quite interesting. And so

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_04]: went for the post and yeah, it was a different, although it's the same, exams

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_04]: are exams. So although it's the same, it is a completely different world to what

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_04]: school exams are like. I mean, the capacity we hold in the examinations,

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we sit up to around about 2000 students in each of our sectors because

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Jess does the paper side. I do the digital side of the examinations. So I run all

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_04]: the online digital. So all of our exam and some of our examinations, faculties

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_04]: have run online. So it's going similarly now to obviously how I've heard AQA

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_04]: thinking about running their exams digitally. So it is something that

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_04]: universities are doing. So it is a complete different ball game in terms

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_04]: of the footfall you have and the prep that you've got to get ready to kind of

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_04]: get these exams up and running and logistically get them up and running.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_04]: But no, it's fun. It's a different world.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_07]: So how long had you worked in schools before making that move then?

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'd been working in schools for about eight years and then I'd been

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_04]: an exam officer for for around about seven of those. And it was one

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_04]: of those that I was just the exam officer left and they just said,

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_04]: oh, could you do the role? And that was it was. Yeah, it was there was no kind

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_04]: of insight to what the role would be like, how demanding it was sold as

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_04]: an admin role. And yeah, that was completely not what an exam is.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Very common.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_04]: It's definitely definitely not an admin role.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_04]: The pressures that you're under to hit them deadlines and

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, kind of get everything running to how they need to be run

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_04]: and and making sure that the students have kind of got the best chance

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, when sitting them exams. Yeah.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think we saw a massive change when COVID hit and

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, the different things we were going through.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And when we came back into doing examinations after COVID, that was just

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_04]: you know, another way of kind of how we were running things again.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, so yeah, it was about seven years that I was doing the exam

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_04]: officer role and then yeah, decided to move on.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'd done like exam officer and then I went into doing within a trust.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: So I worked within a trust and managed three schools in the end.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_04]: So that was that was interesting.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_07]: As like an exam coordinator for the.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So I had a good stepping stone, isn't it?

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_04]: To be fair, I think if I hadn't have done the managing role

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_04]: within the school of kind of running three different schools

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_04]: and how their setup was coming to something as big as as Kings is

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_04]: would have been, yeah, I would have been like a fish out of water.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I think to be honest, it was we're walking into the Excel exam room

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_04]: is yeah, it's another level.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And Jess, what about you?

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you start as a schools exams officer or this have you come through the higher

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: ad route? No, I actually kind of fell into this pose similarly to Karen.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I graduated university and my former head teacher was like, Jess,

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: do you have a job?

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And because I've been invigilating at the school at the time

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and it just so happened that the receptionist had handed their notice

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: in with immediate effect as I was leaving uni.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And she said to me, right, we'll do a six month contract.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So then you can then find what you want to be doing using your degree, etc.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: That was in 2011.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So six months turned into doing 13 years at the school

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and I moved from reception into admissions and then moved into exams

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: assistant and then took over as the exams and data manager

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: about six years ago now.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So I had quite a good understanding of exams before heading into it.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Did a few extra bits on the side in terms of like timetabling

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and would do some partial roles within the school.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was a form shooter because I needed.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I needed a new challenge every year.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And I kind of got to the point where I wasn't being challenged

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: anymore in my job because I'd done it for so many years.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, time table will do that for you.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that was that was my last challenge.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So I learned how to timetable in the last couple of years

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and supported with the writing of the timetable,

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_00]: which obviously I got my skills from doing timetabling mock exams.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So had a good understanding of how processes

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: need to come together to be able to form a decent looking timetable.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: We had a couple of new schools opened up in our trust,

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_00]: which started in 2017, I think.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So I supported the new exams offices in those posts.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But I was at a point where where else am I going to go?

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Either I move into finance or HR, which I had no interest in.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought, oh, I'll start looking at university.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So originally I applied for a timetabling job at Sussex

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and decided, no, that's too far away from me to commute.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Then narrowed it down to London Unis

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and like Karen saw the job at King's come up

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and I thought, throw my hat in the ring and see what happens.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So I started there on the first of July.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So I've done just under three months.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh, so you so you're both I'm right about this.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_07]: You're both new to university exams.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I started last September.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, and then just followed a few months after.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_07]: Has that been has that in a way been good?

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_07]: The fact that you're both new like picking it up together?

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_07]: Or do you think that, you know, would it have helped if one of you

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_07]: had had more experience? What what do you think about that?

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_04]: I think to be honest, I think as a team,

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm like we're a really good team.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And I mean, the hours are longer than what you would do in school exams.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_04]: So obviously I thought school exams were long hours.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, the hours we do during our examinations are immense.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_04]: We can do up to 12 hour days.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, my God.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_04]: We're kind of working like flat out.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think as a team, we kind of all pulled together, to be honest.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think I mean, I've got some knowledge of kind of beforehand.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I was quite lucky that when I started, I was in a lower grade post

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_04]: and kind of had the support of the team that was there at the time

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_04]: kind of training me and showing me different things.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And then obviously as it progressed, I then got promoted

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_04]: about three or four months after starting.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And then it was more kind of learning the logistical side of it.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, I think when you come on,

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_04]: you've got to kind of put your head in the game that these are

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_04]: although they are massive, these are still just exams that you're running.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_04]: And the processes are pretty similar to how you would run them in school exams.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_04]: So I think, like to be fair with me and Jess, we kind of just pull on each other

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_04]: in kind of knowledge that we've got from school, knowledge

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_04]: that we both kind of gained from being a king so far.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_04]: But then also, I mean, faculties and departments are amazing

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_04]: in kind of helping you with any questions you've got as well, which is plenty.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_04]: It can be plenty.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_07]: Shall we get onto that then?

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_07]: Because there are a couple of areas that I'm particularly interested in.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_07]: One is to do with scale.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_07]: So like just the sheer size of it.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_07]: And the other is to do with kind of the systems and how the systems work.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_07]: So because obviously, like in schools, we have a nationwide framework

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_07]: for how everything works, but obviously.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_07]: So shall we start with the scale bit?

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_07]: So like how big is your team?

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_07]: Firstly, how how how big is the examinations team?

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_07]: With the university team?

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Eight of us.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Eight of us? Yeah. Eight of us in the team.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_04]: So we have the head of examinations, then there's me and Jess

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_04]: that each run the different side of exams.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_04]: So as I said, Jess does the paper side and I do the digital side.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Then we've got four grade fives who are our senior assessment officers.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_04]: So they help kind of prep and get all the admin side done.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And then we've got a grade four

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_04]: who kind of handles all our share point and queries and things like that.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_07]: OK, OK. And what about invigilation?

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_07]: How many invigilators do you need to?

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_04]: So we're just we're increasing our invigilation currently, aren't we?

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_04]: We're looking to to go out the post currently.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think I think we're about 90 now.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Wow. Yeah.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Think we're about 90 invigilators that we've currently got.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_07]: Cracking.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And so working regularly. Yeah.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_07]: It's do you find is is that a similar kind of dynamic to schools

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_07]: in terms of recruiting and vigilators and the sorts of people that you get?

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_07]: Is it similar or are there any differences?

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Most of my invigilation team were either retired or

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: but then post covid and this is talking in the schools post covid

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: where money was starting to get more difficult for people and things.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I had more people that were working multiple jobs.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So I saw the shift change with that over the last few years.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But predominantly, most of the team were people

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: that were just looking for a few extra hours to pay for holidays

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and have to spend money.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas from the what I've seen from our team

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and I've only run one exam season since I've joined Kings.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So I've only met the team for two weeks.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of them seem to be into theatre, don't they?

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yes. Yeah.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_04]: They really do.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_04]: There's so many that turn around

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_04]: and they're telling us all these theatre things that they're currently doing.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_04]: But to be fair, their announcements are spot on.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_04]: That's fantastic.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_00]: That's excellent.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: When you're having to talk to what, four thousand students at any one time.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gosh.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's you've got to have some level of confidence.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And the voice projection.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: The voice projection. Got it down.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_07]: Is that do you think that's because of where you are in London that you get?

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_07]: Those.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_04]: It could be. It could be.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we've got a array of people, haven't we, that kind of come and work with us.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_04]: But they're all that I mean, we all get on so well.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_04]: We met up with a couple of them yesterday for lunch.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, they just yeah, they just could fun to be honest.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think because you're working so long with each other,

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_04]: kind of you just build relationships with your team anyway.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_07]: So yeah. Do you have like, do you have lead invigilators?

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_07]: Jess, do you have people who you sort of who are more in charge than others?

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_07]: If you see what I mean?

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's yeah, that's what we're just looking at changing our structure.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So within each of our paper and digital areas,

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_00]: we've then got zones which are based on colour.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to have a head invigilator who will oversee the whole area

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: of whether it's paper or digital.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But then within each zone, we'll then have a lead that will be then taking

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: charge of say 240 students and then there'll be maybe two or three

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00]: invigilators underneath them to help with the obviously

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_00]: the watching of the students and checking and getting everything laid out

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and etc. But that's something that we've added in new

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: is just going out for for advert actually to try and get more of that structure in.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So when we've got the we do have some really tight

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_00]: turnarounds, particularly between we run three sessions a day.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So we have a nine o'clock, a one 30 and a four 30.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And most about three hour exams will take place at nine o'clock in the morning.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So we've then got a very short window to get everything packed up

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and then get everything ready before the students start coming in at one

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: o'clock for the one 30 starts.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's important to have that structure in so that somebody is able to take

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: a lead of each area because sometimes we can be running up to within

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: one session up to 40 different exams.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You asked about the scale, John.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: There you are. Absolutely.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. So it's really important that we've got team members

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: that really understand what's going on in their zone so that we then

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: don't have any delays.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, that then has a knock on effect at every point in the day.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_07]: And I'm guessing as well because the university exams, a lot of the exams

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_07]: must be longer, right?

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_07]: So they're like you must have a lot of three hour exams and things like that.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_07]: So that reduces turnaround times even more, doesn't it?

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_07]: I suppose. Gosh, I mean, the reason I asked about that leading vigil.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_07]: I've actually a few of my invigilators were in Brighton.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_07]: So Sussex, we have Sussex and Brighton Uni.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_07]: And some of my invigilators do also invigilate up at the universities.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_07]: And what they were saying to me was that the structure

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_07]: that exists there for lead and non-lead invigilators is really all just

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_07]: about just picking up papers.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_07]: So basically you get an extra like you get paid a little bit more

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_07]: if you're one of the people who go and pick up the papers.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_07]: But then what they said was that when they get in the exam room,

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_07]: there is no structure.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_07]: And so everyone's just looking at each other to see who's going to take charge.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_07]: And they said it's much they much prefer it, you know,

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_07]: where they have that structure of like they walk into the room

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_07]: and they know that this OK, this person's in charge of this bit or whatever.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_07]: You know, so absolutely.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then there's there's a level of if there is a problem.

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a hierarchy for escalation of that problem.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So if the lead can't solve it, they'll then go to the head

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and then the head will then come to Karen or I if there is a significant problem.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But the the leads and the heads that we have got

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that we've got lined up for the post have been working either with us

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: for a number of years or have already been doing the job

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're just formalizing that for them more than anything.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's all about thinking about your staff and staff well-being, isn't it?

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's making sure that we've got somebody who is going to enforce.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: People take the breaks, particularly with when we're going between a nine

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and a 130 slot if we have been delayed for whatever reason

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: that then limits their break times and it's about coordinating that

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_00]: so that you keep the team happy because you don't want to be faced with

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_00]: staff turning around and saying, actually, I've not had a break today,

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: so I'm not coming in tomorrow, which I know it does happen.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I know that a lot of my colleagues when I was working in schools

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: had real problems with retention of their invigilators year on year,

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_00]: particularly after covid when the parameters of things changed.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's part of the reason why the the J.C.Q.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_00]: changed the ratio wasn't it to start with with the 40 to one

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: because the schools just couldn't get invigilators.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's about making sure that you're keeping your staff happy.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that they do want to keep coming back and like yesterday,

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_00]: it was a great start for lunch with with the ones that we did meet up with yesterday.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And as Karen said, we'll just get on really well.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_00]: We're one big team.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah. Karen, how does how does invigilation work

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_07]: with the digital side of things then for you?

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_04]: So it depends what type of exam we're doing.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_04]: So if we're doing the medical exams,

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_04]: they're kind of structured on a different platform.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's one that we can kind of see, you know, how they've logged in

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_04]: and whether they've kind of gone away from where they're supposed to be.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_04]: It works same in terms of the invigilations are kind of walking around

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_04]: making sure that they've not got phones and things.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_04]: But if it's just a normal digital exam,

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_04]: then it is a case of kind of spotting whether they're opening other websites

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_04]: that they're not supposed to be opening because, you know,

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_04]: they might get access to things that they're not supposed to get access to

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_04]: and different things like that.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_04]: But obviously we have to make sure that the internet is strong enough

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_04]: to hold the capacity that we're kind of doing in the examination room.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, it's they're getting I think I think you get a lot of vigilators

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_04]: that walk walk into digital and then they're scared because it's a computer.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_04]: The computer's in front of them.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_04]: And I found that in schools as soon as we said it was the listening exam,

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_04]: it was the one thing that freaked my invigilators out the most.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, and I was like, you just press play.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_04]: So it was that simple.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's you enter anything digital and people just like, oh, my God, no.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, it's good to see a different side of a way an exam could work.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_04]: So I quite like the digital side.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's fascinating.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_07]: And what's the what's the split?

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_07]: Would you say the ratio in terms of like how many how many exams

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_07]: are conducted paper based and how many are done digitally?

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Currently more done more done on the paper based side

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_04]: than the digital side.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_04]: We are getting more faculties that are kind of getting a bit more

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_04]: interested in in doing the digital side of exams.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_04]: But again, it's what you can do within digital

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_04]: because you get a lot that need formulas or grass or different things like that.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And right now it's not not something that we're we're able to offer

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_04]: on the digital side of things.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, it's it's the majority are run paper side of exams.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I mean, that's when we spoke to a QA,

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_07]: that's basically what they were saying as well is like obviously

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_07]: they want to sort of slowly move stuff towards digital.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_07]: But also they with the recognition that, you know, there'll be some things

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_07]: that it may just never be appropriate for, you know, that

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_07]: that they'll always probably be that split between paper and digital.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_07]: But obviously in some subjects, it sort of does make sense.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_07]: And I guess is it the logistical?

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_07]: Are there any logistical differences between doing paper and online?

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_07]: Is it is one kind of easier logistically or who's got the easier job?

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: He's got the easier job.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_04]: I would say paper has it easier in terms of the setup for it

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_04]: because logistically we just have more that we need to get into that exam room.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_04]: So like in terms of laptops, power, internet,

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_04]: you've got a whole array of things.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_04]: You've got to kind of think how that room can be set up to kind of fit them students in.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Whereas in the paper side, obviously it's desk seat

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_04]: and just the paper to put in front.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_04]: But with the vast amount that we kind of do within papers

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and we don't just have one paper for the whole module,

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_04]: you could have different reset papers within that same module.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, logistically in terms of making sure that the papers are right

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_04]: and people are sitting in the right exams and everything like that,

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_04]: it's logistically harder in that element, I would say for the paper.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Whereas digitally, you're just going to the link

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_04]: that you've been provided to kind of sit your exam.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I would say that side is a bit more easier.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, logistically set up.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's there's just a bit more on the paper side of things.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah. OK, OK.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_07]: Jess, do you want to do you want to counter that?

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I think I think we're fortunate that if we've got a

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: if we're short on papers, we have got access to printers.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: If a link doesn't work for Karen on a digital exam,

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: then it's a much bigger challenge to try and resolve, resolve that,

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_00]: which obviously we put our measures in place

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: to make sure that everything is checked before we go

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and we go off to the printers to make sure that the papers

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: we've got all of the papers that we're expecting

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: prior to them getting delivered to Excel when we're when we're heading over there.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But in terms of scaling, just to give you an idea of the numbers

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_00]: that we're a foot for that we have each year.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So my last exam season that I've just run as a in a school was

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_00]: that we did I did six and a half thousand papers in that five and a half week.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: This year we've Kings expecting to do about between

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: one hundred and twenty and one hundred and forty thousand exam sittings.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So just to give you an idea of scale.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, go on, Jess.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, so in terms of scaling wise and yeah, as Karen said,

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: running we have the same challenges in terms of making sure that

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: we've got exams integrity when it comes to students that might have clashes.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_00]: The schools have we've got problems with people trying to cheat

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and and that's never going to go away.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just how we manage that in terms of the training of the invigilators

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and making sure that they are vigilant in what they are doing

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and holding them to account, even though they are on a zero hours contract.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: They've still got a service and the job to do.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And so our training is key.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So as much as it is different to schools,

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: it is very similar in so many ways.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And you've done you mentioned earlier about the software that we use.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: We use a piece of work called Santa,

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_00]: which can you agree is very similar to Sims in many ways.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: It's quite intuitive.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It's as much as the exams module of Sims is really quite dated now.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I know they've done nothing with it for the last year since they since they made it.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's quite a clunky piece of software.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's we are using something quite similar.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So when I when I joined the team and I had a week before we were then prepping

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: for the August exams and the resets, so it was like hit the ground

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_00]: running in that respect and looked at the system and like, God, what is this system?

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But then as I started to look work my way through it actually

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: is very similar to Sims in many ways.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just knowing the like the shortcuts and the the key ways to get

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00]: the information process through it.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things as well that we thought

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01]: must differ quite a lot between schools and universities in terms of exams

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: was access arrangements.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_07]: How are you doing that?

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_07]: Are you like just taking what comes from students

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_07]: from when they've been at school or are you students get assessed?

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Or how does that work?

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yes, the students, students currently they they go and speak to a disability

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_04]: advisor who will set them up like a King's inclusion plan to kind of make

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_04]: university accessible.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_04]: But then off the back of that, they then put the power arrangements in for them as well.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think that that's kind of given from JCQ.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_04]: So if they've got something from JCQ, we'll tend to give them an interim pass.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_04]: So we'll say, right, we'll give you an interim for six months,

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_04]: maybe maybe two years in terms of waiting for having a diagnostic report

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_04]: because then they do have to go and get a diagnostic report done

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_04]: to kind of show the SPLD side that they've got.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_04]: And then it works.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_04]: It works similarly to be fair of what we do in schools

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_04]: in terms of what we put in place for that student.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_04]: But we obviously we just have a larger amount of students that we tend to go through.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, the support that they get from Kings is good in terms of kind of

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_04]: that they've got an advisor they can go and talk to and kind of work out

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_04]: how they can make their course accessible, but also their examination accessible to them.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_07]: That's interesting.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_07]: Can I just ask as well, because one of the things like I think we see more and more

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_07]: of in schools is obviously students who are either struggling with mental

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_07]: health issues or have anxiety around doing exams.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_07]: Is that something that you also are seeing quite a lot of at university level?

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, I think I think the thing is,

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I think when a student walks into the Excel centre and kind of see the size,

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_04]: that's unnerving in itself.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_04]: We saw I saw that in schools when when a student used to walk into the exam hall

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_04]: even that size. But when you're walking into the Excel centre,

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_04]: it's, you know, we do get a lot of nervous students.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_04]: But we do have exactly the same set up in schools.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_04]: We have params that we that students go to that are a bit more accessible to them.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_04]: So and they can handle that anxiety a little bit more

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_04]: than what they would in the in the main hall.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, the set up in that sense is exactly the same.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you get a lot of requests for those additional rooms then?

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_04]: For the params? Yeah, I mean, it yeah, it depends.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_04]: I think.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, in terms of the the the the anxiety side of things,

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_04]: we don't they don't tend to get to get filled up as much in that in that area.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_04]: It's mainly if they've got kind of extra time or a computer

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_04]: that needs to be used and things.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_04]: We do have a have a few students that are anxious to come into into the room.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_04]: But I would I wouldn't say there was a vast majority to be fair.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah. OK.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that. Yeah, sorry, John, I was just going to say we are at

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: the tail end now of students that didn't actually sit their GCSEs and A levels

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_00]: during during the pandemic.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So they those students are now leaving university.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we've got a new challenge coming through with there being like

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00]: more ADHD diagnoses and autism as well.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I think having left school, there had been a 300 percent increase

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_00]: in students that had been diagnosed with either ADHD or autism

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: pre and post covid in just my centre.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's it's we've got that wave of challenge to come next at Kings.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. So I think we're the tail end of the real mental health problems

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: because of covid is going.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's the new wave of challenge that is that it's about to hit

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_00]: universities in the next couple of years, really.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_07]: That's interesting.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_07]: I mean, because one of the things that I I've definitely seen is like

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_07]: where I think when I first started about 12 years ago, it's like

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_07]: a lot of the issues we face were to do with behavior in schools.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_07]: So like often quite confrontational behavior and stuff.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_07]: And that has almost gone.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_07]: But we've got a different kind of is weird, isn't it?

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_07]: How you get these different types of challenge going in.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_07]: Trying to preempt them and step ahead of everything.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't it? Yeah.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah. Fascinating.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you get many students cheating?

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_07]: And.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, so do you get many students?

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_07]: I should I should say committing malpractice.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Shouldn't I use the correct terminology?

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I mean, I think if the opportunities there,

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I think people will try and take it if they think they can get away with it.

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And with the digital exams, that's has is a new layer of

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00]: complication with science like chat GPT that they're able to access.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's the challenges of like monitoring toilet breaks with them

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_00]: when you've got a room full of 4000 students, which have got the

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_00]: opportunity to go to the toilet after an hour and 15 minutes of the exam starting.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: If a good percentage of those are all put their hand up and need to go,

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: it's then how do we monitor that and stop them from having

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: conversations when they step outside of the room and or trying to leave

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00]: things in toilets, which yeah, I had to deal with over the years.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And those they it's just trying to be one step ahead of them

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and trying to put into place preventative measures and making sure

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: that they're well informed, walking into the exam room,

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: what the consequences are going to be.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Should they should they try anything?

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: The worst the worst case that can happen is complete expulsion from university.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, it's and that they're all informed of that prior to the exam starting.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just whether they think they're going to be able to get away with it

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and take the risk, which we've got a really good team of invigilators

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that are really hot and on finding phones on them and making sure that we

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and similarly to how things work with the J.C.Q.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of repercussions of that if it's on their person, but not being used.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And then right through to having like finding a student with their phone

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: on their desk trying to look at a mile screen from an old old paper.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_00]: We've had it all in the same similarly with the J.C.Q.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: The sanction gets escalated depending on the severity

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and the nature of what the what the cheating or misconduct is

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_00]: that's that's taking place.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_07]: So do you produce materials that sort of mirror like what J.C.Q. would do?

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_07]: So do you have like standard posters that you put up in exam rooms

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_07]: and information that you send to candidates about the rules?

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_07]: Like is that do you do you guys do that?

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so I mean we have we have signs that that kind of basically saying stop

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_04]: like the same thing that you would put outside of a room of an exam

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_04]: to basically say make sure you haven't got your phone on you make sure it switched off blah blah blah.

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_04]: So we do have all of those those signs, but they're just on a bigger scale.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So they're like you know if you'd get the I can't think of what they call the roll one.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_04]: They're roller banners aren't they?

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have low we have roller banners that we kind of put up

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_04]: to make sure that students are aware of the rules and and then you know

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_04]: that they're kind of told within faculty and then on any website pages

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_04]: that we've got there they're informed of rules and what they're allowed to do

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_04]: not allowed to do and everything like that.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_04]: But it's obviously not as obviously with JCQ it's something that you get inspected

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_04]: and and everything like that is not done in the same way in that sense.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_01]: On that in terms of the kind of differences there between schools and exams

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: you know obviously the exams officers are really well networked bunch of people.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: How does that work across universities?

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you do you have like a network of exams managers that you that you know

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and share best practice and resources etc or do you work entirely just?

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_04]: So I think yeah, I think me and Jess are so new within the within the

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_04]: university roles we haven't really kind of breached out to other universities.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean we do have intercollegiate students where we'll have a student

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_04]: that sits is registered with another university but sits a module with us.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_04]: So we have kind of the connection there.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_04]: You know with our I mean our HUL we have quite a strong connection with them

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_04]: and I speak to the exam manager over there quite a bit

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_04]: and she was actually saying you know on the intercollegiate side

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_04]: that they used to kind of have a group that used to me

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_04]: and kind of share on how to manage the intercollegiate students

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_04]: and she was quite keen to set up kind of a new group

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_04]: in in kind of speaking with each manager within the university.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_04]: So I know that there are things that that do go on

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_04]: but I think because me and Jess are so new to these positions

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_04]: that you know we're just kind of reached like kind of learning

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_04]: different people within universities but it's not something that currently we

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I kind of had like because we I mean I used the exams office an awful lot

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_04]: and obviously went to their conferences and their training sessions

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_04]: and things and you'd get to meet other exam officers in that way.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_04]: But we right and currently I don't have anything where I speak

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_04]: to other universities regularly to be honest.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_07]: I guess because you're not under a national framework in schools

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_07]: it doesn't there's not there's there's stuff in common obviously

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_07]: you have a lot in common but there's not maybe as much in common.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_04]: No no no not in the same way that the schools are running exams anyway.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah yeah sure and you're just doing such a good job that you don't need to.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_07]: You don't know that's the thing you know.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_07]: That's it.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_07]: You've got it down.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_07]: Can I can I just got two more things I wanted to ask you about.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_07]: He's got a list of them.

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: 45.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Let me show you my list.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Fortunately you don't have to do that.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_00]: He's so wiki me.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah he is.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: He's so wiki me.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_01]: When you mentioned Karen you mentioned just really impassion about medical exams

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and being trouble like oh I've got about 45 questions on that alone.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just on that one.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll let him have John you've got two.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_07]: I just don't want to get to the end of this and kick myself.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_07]: I didn't ask you.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not asking something.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_07]: So I promise we won't keep you much longer but.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_07]: So yeah one of the things I wanted to ask you about was the security of your exam papers.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you just do that in exactly the same way as you would at school?

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_07]: And also like getting the papers from the faculties how does that all work?

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's all done securely through channels where they're locked down to just the faculties and ourselves

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_04]: and that's how we share the papers because I mean we get thousands,

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_04]: thousands of papers that's kind of sent through to us.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_04]: And then they're all printed off by a printing company that then keep them in a secure lockup area within Excel

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_04]: which is where we kind of store everything.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_04]: And then that's brought out for the exam days.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_07]: How often do you go down to Excel then?

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_07]: How much time do you spend going down there is it?

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_04]: About 60% of our...

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_07]: Really?

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah no we're there a lot.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So we're back there in November for medical exams for a couple of days.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Then we're there for a week in January, we're back in again in March,

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_04]: we're back in there again for five weeks in May and then back in there again for two weeks in August.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_07]: And August is that resit?

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Yes.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_07]: Is that when you do your resit?

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_07]: I was confused just for a bit of context.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_07]: When I first started speaking to Karen and Jess about doing this

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_07]: it was over the summer and we were talking about early August it was.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_07]: And you said to me, oh we're just doing some exams for the next two weeks.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_07]: This job must be insane.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_07]: And then it did tweak eventually with me.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh yeah, those must be resit.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we do, yeah.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_04]: So we don't have a really tight turnaround.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_04]: So we finish on literally the end of May for our May examinations.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_04]: And then we have around about two months to turn around a two week examination period for August.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, it's a tight turnaround.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And so yeah, it is full on.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_04]: So Jess literally started as we were beginning the prep for it.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_04]: So it was like she walked in and I was like, right ready to hit the ground running, we're off.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It was absolutely like that.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, but I've just finished a six-week exam season and run marks

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and now's normally my downtime before I start thinking about exam results for the summer.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, no, we'll hit the ground running and have some time off in September.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_00]: When it's a little bit quieter.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Have you had that yet Jess?

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I did manage to get a week off.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So it did get some time off which was good.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_07]: It's so fascinating guys.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you so much for the conversation.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_07]: If there was someone in a school right now who was who'd listened to this conversation was thinking,

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_07]: oh maybe I'd be interested in going into working universities.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_07]: What's the big thing apart from maybe the scale?

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_07]: What's the big thing that's different from working in a school to working in a university from your from your sort of.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_07]: I know you have both haven't been there for that long,

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_07]: but like initially what's your sort of feeling about what's the biggest challenge that you would have moving from one to the other?

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it was learning the processes.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I was so used to deadlines and kind of the strict guidelines we worked to within a school.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it was kind of getting my head into a different way of working in terms of kind of how the processes work,

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_04]: kind of the meetings that we would be in that you kind of get more.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_04]: I got more involved within the university I feel than they're kind of within the school role.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I think that's what I found my biggest challenge was to kind of get my head out of working in a school

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_04]: to working in a university and how those processes are going to be a little bit different.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, I think anyone that kind of wants a different challenge in terms of kind of working at scale within examinations

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_04]: and yeah, I would say jump at it.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I'm so pleased.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I thoroughly enjoy working at Keels.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_07]: You can tell you both found very like energised by us.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_04]: No, there's not a bit that I don't enjoy.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think like as I said to Jess the other day, I said when I walked into the January exams

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_04]: and even though the scale of it was just like wow, it was just the buzz I still got from being within that exam room.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_04]: It was just yeah, it just brought my love of exams back to be honest with me.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just worried that we're going to cause a mass exodus from schools.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to get into all the universities now.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So sorry.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_01]: That wasn't the point of starting this podcast.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe we're going to have schools.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_07]: Luckily there aren't that many universities.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_07]: Jess, have you anything to add to what Karen said?

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think one of the positive changes has been the post COVID that we've got more flexibility with working remotely.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So which in turn is great for better work-life balance and trying to switch off

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and not having that commute every day etc.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: But the hardest challenge I think is if you need an answer from somebody when you're working in a school

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_00]: you can just go and find that head of department to get those entries signed off before you're hitting double fees.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not so easy to be able to have those sorts of levels of conversations.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You can't necessarily always make direct contact and easy contact with people that you need to get to know that you're going to be working with.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But part of what we as the new exams team are going, we've got meetings being scheduled with faculty

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_00]: so that we can start not just having conversations through a screen

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and start picking some names to faces properly and building those relationships up.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're making min roads into the Army Caron which I think you've already had a couple of meetings haven't you?

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's good to not just be sitting on the front of a screen every day.

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But in terms of autonomy within schools, I know sometimes exams officers struggle with that

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_00]: particularly as it's not seen as a particularly important job in some schools I think is fair to say

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: which is then reflective in the salary and it's just deemed as a part-time job which isn't anymore.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It is a full-time job when you're thinking about mocks and things

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think if anyone is looking for a new challenge, as Karen said on a much bigger scale, exams are still exams

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and it definitely does provide that.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I did have a lot of hesitation having worked when you've worked somewhere for such a long time

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're institutionalised in many ways.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It was a big jump for me after 13 years to go actually am I making the right decision?

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But I've got absolutely zero regret of making this decision.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_07]: Do you know what Jess, I've been working in exams in school for 13 years.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_07]: 13 years?

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_07]: Maybe that's the...

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm over to the right side.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_07]: Fabulous. Guys thank you so much.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_07]: It's been such an illuminating conversation.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_07]: Really really appreciate it.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having us.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we might need to get you back on at some point.

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_07]: Thank you so much for listening to the exam man podcast.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_07]: We really really appreciate your support.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_07]: Remember that you can access it on all the major podcast platforms.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_07]: Give us a rating, give us a follow and we will catch you next time.