FROM THE SECURE ROOM: Recruiting Invigilators

[00:00:13] We're going to be doing something new as part of Season 2. So we're going to be putting out

[00:00:19] some additional episodes on the Odd Friday and they're going to form part of a new mini

[00:00:25] series called FROM THE SECURE ROOM. And the purpose of these is going to be to sort

[00:00:32] of shine a light on the way that I do the exams role. So talk about the different methods

[00:00:38] and approaches that I use to perform all the different tasks that we have to do.

[00:00:42] So basically people can learn from your mistake?

[00:00:46] Well, yeah, I suppose in a way, yes. I mean, you know, like I've always said, you know

[00:00:53] that I'm not the expert here, I'm not the oracle but I have done the job for a while.

[00:00:58] So I'm sure there'll be some things that people will listen to with horror, but other

[00:01:04] things hopefully that people might be able to get something from as well. But really,

[00:01:09] I sort of see it as an opportunity to have a bit of a kind of two way conversation.

[00:01:17] And we'd love to hear from you if you've got any suggestions of topics that we could

[00:01:23] discuss, but also like to hear some of your reactions to some of the things that I say

[00:01:27] within the episodes because I'm sure many of you will have ideas of the ways that I could

[00:01:33] improve what I do, but also, you know, kind of further reflections on the way that we

[00:01:39] do the role. So get yourself over as well to our podcast website, which is theexamand.com.

[00:01:44] There's a contact page there so you can send us messages, you can record us voice

[00:01:48] notes, let us know what you'd like to hear us discuss and also give us your reflections

[00:01:53] on the things that we do talk about. So today I am going to talk about the subject of

[00:02:00] recruiting invigilators, which is like a kind of underestimated, I think, but really

[00:02:09] important part of the job. From the amount you talk about recruiting invigilators, I'd say

[00:02:15] it seems like it's about 80% of your job. You talk about it a lot. It must take a lot

[00:02:20] of time.

[00:02:21] It's not so much that it takes up a lot of time, but I think it's really critical, it's

[00:02:25] a really critical part of whether you're able to do your job well.

[00:02:28] Okay, so can we go back to what is an invigilator? Why do you need them and then how do you

[00:02:34] get them?

[00:02:34] Okay, so what is an invigilator? Well, everyone who's done the exam should know what

[00:02:39] an invigilator is. So an invigilator is someone who is there to ensure that

[00:02:43] the rules of the exam are adhered to and to make sure that any deviation from those

[00:02:51] rules is reported. And to just maintain as well basic kind of order within the

[00:02:59] exam room and ensure that the conditions that the students are sitting there

[00:03:03] exams in are optimum. So yeah, that's the basic role of an invigilator.

[00:03:09] But within that obviously that might mean a range of different types of invigilation.

[00:03:16] So the one that probably most people are familiar with is a group of invigilators

[00:03:21] invigilating in a large venue like a sports hall. That's usually you have a

[00:03:25] little team in there and often a lead invigilator. So someone who within

[00:03:29] that invigilation team is sort of in charge. And then you might have

[00:03:36] invigilators who are doing smaller rooms where they might have students with

[00:03:39] access arrangements. So readers and scribes and PCs and things like that.

[00:03:44] So that can involve different types, different skills maybe and a different

[00:03:50] sort of not a different approach because everyone's got to follow the same

[00:03:55] rules but maybe a slightly different skill set you might want for the people

[00:03:59] doing those roles. So one of the reasons why I think it's really

[00:04:02] it's really important this thing of recruiting invigilators is that obviously

[00:04:06] anything that you want to get to work well you need to have the right people.

[00:04:12] That's just like absolutely key and actually as an exams officer like

[00:04:16] recruiting all those invigilators and managing them is a difficult part of

[00:04:20] the job but it's also like an amazing opportunity actually because there

[00:04:25] aren't many roles in public organizations like schools where you

[00:04:29] actually really get to build your own team like that. So recruitment is

[00:04:33] famously quite a large team as well. It's quite a large team and you have

[00:04:38] so much control over that. So while it can be daunting as and it definitely

[00:04:45] can be and also if you if it goes wrong it can cause difficulties.

[00:04:50] It is also a massive opportunity to be able to do your job well because

[00:04:55] you have the control to put together a team that you're happy with and

[00:05:01] that you think fulfills all those sort of different skills and attributes

[00:05:06] that you might need. So how many do you need at your school?

[00:05:09] So we typically have about 200 students in a year group and so at

[00:05:17] the moment I have a team of about 25 invigilators which is about right.

[00:05:23] So one of the issues I've always found with sort of the number of people

[00:05:28] that you have in your team is that there's like an optimum number.

[00:05:32] So obviously if you have too few then you might not have enough

[00:05:38] invigilators to fill the quota so you've got to have for every 30

[00:05:42] students you've got to have at least one invigilator.

[00:05:46] So you've got to make sure that you've got enough invigilators

[00:05:50] to cover your quotas and remember that in some rooms you're only

[00:05:53] going to have like maybe three or four students or even in some

[00:05:56] rooms just one student and you need one invigilator first.

[00:05:59] So they're going to be spread.

[00:06:02] But at the same time if you have too many invigilators then

[00:06:06] you've created a new problem which is that you've got to think

[00:06:10] about how do I give enough work to these people to keep them

[00:06:14] interested and motivated to do the job because obviously

[00:06:19] the work is kind of seasonal.

[00:06:23] You know it does and a lot of them will have other jobs as well.

[00:06:25] Yeah, and other commitments and particularly if you've got people

[00:06:29] who are retired they might have other family commitments as well.

[00:06:32] And so you are often competing with for their time.

[00:06:38] And so you've got to make it attractive to them as well

[00:06:41] which means giving them enough work for it to feel worthwhile.

[00:06:46] Invigilators will differ to some extent on this.

[00:06:49] So there'll be some people who are happy to do less and to

[00:06:53] you know to not need a huge amount of work

[00:06:57] and that would actually be their preference.

[00:07:01] But obviously you can't have too many of them because you need

[00:07:03] to you need people who can work regularly as well.

[00:07:06] So I think there is like an optimum

[00:07:08] an optimum number of invigilators you want

[00:07:12] and to some extent that will depend upon their availability as well.

[00:07:16] So you probably need slightly fewer if all of them have really good availability.

[00:07:21] But I think once you've been working in the job for a while,

[00:07:24] particularly if you stayed in the same school,

[00:07:26] you start to get a feel for right how many invigilators I think I need.

[00:07:30] One issue that I've got coming up is that we've in our current year 11

[00:07:35] we've got 180 students but by strange quirk next year

[00:07:40] we're going to have 290 students in our year 11.

[00:07:43] So it's a massive change.

[00:07:44] So this year my challenge is keeping everybody interested

[00:07:48] because I've got I'm going to have fewer invigilation slots for everyone to fit into.

[00:07:54] But next year I'm going to need probably I'm going to need to recruit more people.

[00:07:57] How do you recruit them?

[00:08:00] So yeah, it's a good question.

[00:08:04] I think the answer to this sort of depends to some extent on

[00:08:10] on a number of factors.

[00:08:12] So my preferred route for recruiting

[00:08:17] invigilators is through recommendation.

[00:08:19] So it's through another member of my team saying,

[00:08:23] I know this person, I can vouch for them.

[00:08:26] I think they'd be a really good invigilator.

[00:08:28] And if that person who's making that recommendation

[00:08:31] is a highly trusted member of my team, then I can have a decent amount of confidence.

[00:08:36] Yeah, that they're possibly going to be a good fit.

[00:08:45] Obviously, if you're trying to recruit quite a large number,

[00:08:48] that might not be that might not give you enough.

[00:08:51] So obviously you can put adverts out,

[00:08:54] you know, you can do that through the kind of recruitment channels

[00:08:57] and either through local press or through things like

[00:09:04] the Times Education Supplement,

[00:09:07] you know, all these places where you can local jobs boards,

[00:09:09] local jobs boards, all these places where people usually go to recruit.

[00:09:13] You can put them on the websites, you know, like Indeed and things like that.

[00:09:21] But the thing with that is, you know, you've got no

[00:09:25] there's no filter to that at all.

[00:09:27] So so then, you know, then you're going through

[00:09:30] the recruitment process without any sort of prior knowledge about the person.

[00:09:34] And it's because the demographic is pretty wide.

[00:09:38] So the fact that you have a lot of retired people,

[00:09:39] but you've also had ex students, haven't you come back?

[00:09:42] That you've taught them to come back and, you know, quite a wide.

[00:09:46] I mean, often you will pick up people who have some kind of link to the school.

[00:09:50] The other thing is parents as well.

[00:09:52] So one that I find works quite well is parents of students

[00:09:57] who have been at the school but left because they then don't have the issue

[00:10:01] of conflicts of interest, having students you don't have to worry about that.

[00:10:05] But they know the school and often if they want to work at the school

[00:10:08] and there's Charles left, it means that they have a positive view of the school

[00:10:11] as well. And that's a really good thing because

[00:10:15] you don't really want people coming in who might have a preexisting negative

[00:10:19] view of the school. I've only had that once.

[00:10:21] But that was a disaster, you know, and we had to let that person go

[00:10:25] because they had certain preexisting beliefs about the school,

[00:10:30] which were very negative and that obviously then creates all sorts of issues.

[00:10:37] So, yeah, so parents and parents of ex students,

[00:10:42] ex students themselves.

[00:10:44] What about university students?

[00:10:45] Because we're in Brighton, we've got two universities.

[00:10:48] I remember in a previous episode when we talked to Simon at Monkton,

[00:10:51] I mentioned that we'd had university students and he said because he had a small

[00:10:56] team, he preferred not to go down that route because he was kind of looking for

[00:11:01] like longer term sort of people.

[00:11:04] But for me, sometimes to plug a gap as students can be quite a good one

[00:11:08] because particularly if you think about my situation next year,

[00:11:11] where I've got this sudden increase in the number of students

[00:11:14] and I need to get some invigilators in, but I won't necessarily need them

[00:11:18] the year after. Yeah.

[00:11:21] That's quite a good solution in that situation because you'll get people who

[00:11:24] want to do it at that moment, but they're not looking at it at all on a long term basis.

[00:11:31] What's interesting as well with our families that like occasionally,

[00:11:35] obviously most of my invigilators are older and many of them are retired.

[00:11:41] And having a young person join the team is fantastic

[00:11:44] because they absolutely love that.

[00:11:47] They love to have someone to mentor, someone who's going to tell them

[00:11:51] interesting stories about what young people are up to and what they think about things.

[00:11:56] And so I've always found that introducing one or two younger people,

[00:12:00] whether that's like you say ex-students or university students

[00:12:05] into the mix can have a really, really nice effect.

[00:12:08] And your annual trip to the pub with the invigilators,

[00:12:11] the staff that must be like, how do you how do you all know each other?

[00:12:15] Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:12:17] Because we're clearly not a workplace because we're too old to be,

[00:12:20] you know, the demographic is too old to be like an ordinary office workplace.

[00:12:24] So yeah, we interesting.

[00:12:26] We had we went to the pub for our end of year do

[00:12:30] probably two or three years ago and it was lovely evening.

[00:12:33] It was hot, but a couple of the bar staff were ex-students

[00:12:36] and so they recognized us all and they knew who we were

[00:12:39] and they made a real fuss about that.

[00:12:41] So it was really, really nice.

[00:12:43] Yeah. How do you keep them motivated?

[00:12:47] How do you keep them coming back here on? Yeah.

[00:12:52] I think there's

[00:12:55] probably a couple of things that that we've done.

[00:12:59] So we I mentioned in our episode during covid

[00:13:03] that we've made a lot of efforts in recent years

[00:13:08] to really make them feel part of the staff.

[00:13:11] So one thing we did was to give them all a staff email address,

[00:13:15] which means that they get if they want to

[00:13:17] I'm not suggesting that all of them do by any stretch of imagination,

[00:13:21] but if they want to, they can read the all staff emails

[00:13:23] so they know what's going on in the in the school.

[00:13:26] That's a real part of it.

[00:13:27] We also ask them on occasions to get involved in helping out with other things.

[00:13:32] So sometimes invigilators will go on trips.

[00:13:34] Some of them are

[00:13:36] less excited and running covid testing.

[00:13:39] Yeah, they did the covid testing, obviously.

[00:13:41] Some of them are cleared to drive the minibus, so help with things like that.

[00:13:46] That's brilliant because no one ever wants to drive the minibus.

[00:13:49] No, absolutely.

[00:13:51] And so, yeah, so we do as much as we possibly can

[00:13:55] to create the feeling that they're part of the school staff

[00:13:58] rather than separate to it.

[00:14:00] There's a lovely thing we do as well at the end of every year

[00:14:03] where we have this thing in our school where every Wednesday,

[00:14:08] a different department makes food for the staff room.

[00:14:14] And at the end of the year,

[00:14:16] our invigilation team does that and it's always like I'm biased,

[00:14:21] but I think most people in school would say it's always the best one

[00:14:24] because everyone just brings in these fantastic

[00:14:28] dishes and it's like, you know, there's obviously like so many people

[00:14:31] in the team that there's this huge array of food

[00:14:35] and yeah, and it's amazing.

[00:14:37] And I and people are always the rest of the stuff

[00:14:40] always really grateful and come and say thank you and talk to the vigilators

[00:14:44] and stuff so it really feels like they're part of the school community rather than,

[00:14:47] you know, because it is obviously casual work.

[00:14:50] And so there can be that thing of like, oh, you just, you know,

[00:14:52] we just drag them in to do a job and then they go and there's no connection

[00:14:55] to the school. But we do we do.

[00:14:58] And certainly in recent years, we've worked really hard to foster that.

[00:15:02] And one of the things that I found from that is that sometimes it requires

[00:15:05] a little bit of investment.

[00:15:06] So like obviously occasion will be paying invigilators to do things like,

[00:15:10] you know, to go on trips and things like that.

[00:15:12] But I think it's worth it because we don't experience now

[00:15:16] probably the same turnover that we did.

[00:15:18] And obviously a big churn of invigilators ends up being expensive.

[00:15:22] You know, you have to pay for that fresh DBS checks

[00:15:26] and all that sort of stuff.

[00:15:28] So so I think in the long term, both for the kind of morale of the team,

[00:15:33] the motivation of the invigilators themselves and for the good of the school.

[00:15:36] It's like we really important.

[00:15:38] Yes, it's really important.

[00:15:41] So how do you on board invigilators?

[00:15:43] Is it just like any other new member of staff?

[00:15:47] Yeah, yeah, it is.

[00:15:48] I mean, obviously we have to follow all the same, you know,

[00:15:50] kind of processes.

[00:15:52] So they have to there is application form for them, the application form.

[00:15:58] And then we will interview them.

[00:16:01] So usually I interview them with our person in charge of HR.

[00:16:07] And we asked them a set of questions, which I think I've had now

[00:16:12] knocking around for years, the same set of questions by London.

[00:16:15] But they're just trying to tease out sort of like whether they have

[00:16:19] a sense of what the skills and characteristics they might need to do.

[00:16:23] The job are, you know, the importance of, you know,

[00:16:27] making sure that they're able to follow the rules and the regulations.

[00:16:31] And also I think one thing I focus on it quite a lot about is like communication.

[00:16:36] So understanding the channels of communication.

[00:16:39] So making sure that they get that, you know, if they spot a problem,

[00:16:42] they should report it, they should write things down when there are issues

[00:16:46] and stuff like that, that sort of like basic stuff that we all kind of

[00:16:49] have been working in schools for years kind of know, but you sort of

[00:16:53] want to get a sense that people understand that, you know, that there are processes

[00:16:57] that they need to follow.

[00:16:59] And obviously we need to check, you know, we ask them questions,

[00:17:02] safeguarding questions and things like that.

[00:17:05] If we are then satisfied that they will be suitable for the role,

[00:17:11] then we'll obviously offer them the role subject to a DBS check.

[00:17:14] So then we go through the process of DBS checking.

[00:17:17] And then when they join us, they have to be trained.

[00:17:20] So it's a requirement from J.C.Q.

[00:17:22] To train your invigilators and to be able to demonstrate an inspection

[00:17:26] that you have trained them.

[00:17:29] So there are various routes for doing this.

[00:17:31] Some people devise their own training.

[00:17:35] Some people, we spoke to an exams officer the other day, didn't we?

[00:17:38] Who was talking about they devising their role playing training,

[00:17:42] which I thought was really interesting.

[00:17:44] But there are, you know, you can do there are online modules

[00:17:47] that you can access as well where they can get certificate for training.

[00:17:51] You do it yourself, don't you?

[00:17:52] I devise my own training for them as well.

[00:17:54] Yeah, but I have to keep assiduously keep records of that for inspection

[00:17:58] because obviously it gets looked at.

[00:18:01] We also run a kind of buddying.

[00:18:04] I do like a buddying thing when new people join as well.

[00:18:07] So I'll put them with an experienced invigilator who will take them around

[00:18:09] and show them the various different types of invigilation.

[00:18:13] And sort of get them up speed on that.

[00:18:15] And that's also a good way of sort of figuring out what the new person's strength might be

[00:18:21] and whether they might be able to do certain things or be more suited

[00:18:25] to other types of invigilation.

[00:18:28] Yeah, so that's how we that's how we get them get them going basically.

[00:18:32] Yeah. So what are the characteristics that you're looking for?

[00:18:37] I mean, quite a broad range of skill sets across the team.

[00:18:41] Yeah, I think that's a really good question and really important.

[00:18:44] Like you do need a variation.

[00:18:45] Like not everyone's going to be the same.

[00:18:47] And like within my team, I've got whole variations of characters.

[00:18:51] And so it's a bit about like figuring out where certain people will be best suited.

[00:18:58] But I think as a general principle, like I found the, you know,

[00:19:04] the most important characteristics, I think calmness under pressure is a big thing.

[00:19:09] Like exams are very like fluid and often quite stressful

[00:19:16] endeavors and people who are not able to remain calm in those situations

[00:19:22] are not can be counterproductive.

[00:19:25] So so I think calmness under pressure is a big thing that that's not

[00:19:30] something you can necessarily always judge that quickly.

[00:19:32] So that's a difficult one when you're recruiting,

[00:19:35] but I think it's a really valuable attribute.

[00:19:40] Sort of attention to detail and a willingness to follow things through.

[00:19:45] So like, you know, it is really important if there's an incident that it gets written up,

[00:19:49] you know, properly and in detail and and that if students are doing things

[00:19:54] which they shouldn't be doing that it gets, you know, that that it gets followed

[00:19:58] through on the things don't get left.

[00:20:03] And also just obviously you're part of quite a big team.

[00:20:06] So so I don't want to say teamworking, but like the ability to get along with people

[00:20:13] to rub along with people.

[00:20:15] Different backgrounds and different.

[00:20:17] And to realise that the whole things about the kids, you know,

[00:20:20] they're not pressure. It's not about you.

[00:20:23] It's not. And I guess that's another thing as well.

[00:20:25] Like in the in the hall, it's not about you.

[00:20:28] Like it's not about you exerting yourself, you know,

[00:20:32] it's about ensuring that the students are following the rules,

[00:20:35] but also that you're staying out of their way if you don't need to be in their way.

[00:20:39] Yes, basically.

[00:20:41] We've done a new thing, which I really, really like,

[00:20:46] which seems to have worked really well.

[00:20:47] We had some issues a few years ago with students coming into the exam hall

[00:20:51] and not always coming in on a calm way as they should.

[00:20:55] And what I used to find was the students would come in and it would be a bit

[00:20:58] ropey and then invigilates would start shouting at them across the room

[00:21:02] to be quiet or to do this and that.

[00:21:04] And we actually instigated this.

[00:21:06] I tried this thing where basically as the students came in, I said to all

[00:21:11] the invigilators, right, I just want you to be silent as the kids come in.

[00:21:16] And we put some instructions for them up on the screen for the students,

[00:21:20] just telling them to remain silent, to find the correct seat

[00:21:24] and check that they were setting the correct seat.

[00:21:26] But nobody said anything as the kids came in and it really worked.

[00:21:30] So now my invigilators, when they come in, when the students come in,

[00:21:33] they don't speak unless they absolutely have to right up to the point

[00:21:38] where the lead invigilator then starts addressing the students at the start

[00:21:42] of the exam and that might not work in every school, but we found it works.

[00:21:46] Works really, really well for us.

[00:21:49] So how do you manage when it goes wrong with recruitment?

[00:21:52] The team?

[00:21:54] Yeah, I mean, I think I've been fortunate over the years

[00:21:57] of not having too many instances of this, but I have had occasions where

[00:22:01] yeah, I haven't recruited well.

[00:22:07] And I think interestingly, we're talking about how

[00:22:10] like one of my preferred routes for recruitment is through a recommendation

[00:22:15] from someone who's already in my team.

[00:22:17] And like I have found for the most part that that is that is a really good way

[00:22:20] of recruiting, but there have been occasions where it's gone wrong.

[00:22:24] And when that goes wrong, it's really bad.

[00:22:27] Yeah. Yeah. So if someone recommends someone

[00:22:30] and then for whatever reason they come in and it just doesn't work like

[00:22:34] they just don't gel with other people or they have something else going on

[00:22:39] in their life, which means they're sort of, you know, they're a bit

[00:22:45] unreliable.

[00:22:46] Then that's awkward because then you've got someone in your team

[00:22:50] who feels like, oh, I recommended this person and then my friend

[00:22:53] and now it's not working out and do I speak to them and what have you?

[00:22:57] I've had one or two like that.

[00:22:59] Thankfully, they've resolved themselves and not in a way that was acrimonious.

[00:23:04] But at the time when it's happening, it is very, very awkward.

[00:23:10] I think a more common one, this isn't something that I've had to encounter

[00:23:15] because I've stayed in the same school the whole time.

[00:23:19] But I think often when people move into a new job,

[00:23:22] if there's a preexisting group of infidulators there

[00:23:26] who are established and if there are some difficult characters within that team,

[00:23:32] then I've heard plenty of stories of some members of the Invisalillation team

[00:23:37] making it life very difficult for the exams officer for whatever reason.

[00:23:46] That's obviously very difficult.

[00:23:48] And I think in that situation, obviously one benefit is that

[00:23:55] as exams officers we're quite well-networked and plugged into each other

[00:23:59] so we can offer each other support.

[00:24:01] But a lot of the advice I see and I think it's right is to remember that

[00:24:05] as an exams officer you have the authority within this team

[00:24:08] and that you can't waste time, you're trying to do your job well

[00:24:12] and get the job done for the kids and you can't waste time

[00:24:16] dealing with people who are being thoroughly counterproductive

[00:24:20] and so you have it in your authority to change your team

[00:24:22] and remove someone from the team if you need to do that.

[00:24:25] And I think it's important to use that authority if the problem

[00:24:29] is being really, really causing a real issue and being very detrimental.

[00:24:36] But yeah thankfully I have an amazing team

[00:24:39] and I've had a few issues along the way but I'm very grateful for the people

[00:24:47] that I have.

[00:24:48] You could pulse with them on the internet.

[00:24:50] Yeah and they work really well with each other

[00:24:56] and they have a sense of what they're there for I think which is the big thing

[00:25:00] which is to facilitate what the kids are doing

[00:25:03] and it's about the kids at the end of the day rather than about us.

[00:25:09] Now these episodes that we're doing, we want to end don't we with a top tip

[00:25:18] on this particular subject.

[00:25:22] What would be your top tip for exams officers when recruiting invigilators?

[00:25:28] My top tip, gosh one just one okay.

[00:25:33] Make it good.

[00:25:35] Okay so I guess what you're trying to do at the end of the day is create a team of people who

[00:25:44] are motivated and care about what they're doing and also one that's kind of harmonious

[00:25:51] which means that your life will in the end be a bit easier and I've definitely found I think

[00:25:56] that the best route to that is this idea of really making people feel part of the school.

[00:26:02] Now that's something that you might want to talk to like your line manager about,

[00:26:06] even your head teacher about how can we achieve this you know and I'm sure that there are

[00:26:13] plenty of ways of doing it that don't involve spending lots of money but

[00:26:19] ways to ensure that your invigilators feel part of the school and that they don't just

[00:26:24] feel like casual workers coming in to do this very discrete thing that they are invested in

[00:26:32] in belonging to the school and also they're invested in the results of the students as well

[00:26:37] as much as the rest of us are. One other thing that I've always done I sort of just inherited

[00:26:44] it really but I sort of really see its value now is of always getting some invigilators in

[00:26:50] to work on results day and I do that and I vary who it is from year to year so I pick people

[00:26:59] each year to come in to make sure that they see the results so that they can see so the students

[00:27:04] they've seen doing the exams in the summer they get to see the end product of it so it really puts

[00:27:09] it in its full context and I think again that helps to really like feel like you're part of

[00:27:18] the process you're not sort of separate to it so yeah so that would be that would be my one one tip

[00:27:25] thank you so much for listening to the exam and podcast we really really appreciate your support

[00:27:33] remember that you can access it on all the major podcast platforms give us a rating give us a follow

[00:27:40] and we will catch you next time