Lord Jim Knight

The Exam ManNovember 11, 2024

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33:1437.31 MB

Lord Jim Knight

On The Exam Man podcast this week we are joined by Lord Jim Knight, a leader and advisor across a variety of areas such as education, technology, international schools, assessment, and teacher engagement. His many current hats include being a member of the UK House of Lords, Chair of @COBIS, Chair of E-Act, on the Nord Anglia Education Advisory Board, and on the qualifications committee for Pearson. Jim is also one of the founders of xRapidGroup, a company using iOS devices to power microscopes with AI. Earlier on in his varied and illustrious career, Jim was the longest- serving Schools Minister in the UK government led by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown and Chief Education and External Officer at Tes.

Jim navigated our wide-ranging questions predictably seamlessly, from AI and assessment, why he became interested in technology, to what it's like to be both a real-life Lord and a Knight.

Enjoy!

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[00:00:23] I was running a constituency surgery upstairs in Weymouth Library and my mobile phone rings

[00:00:29] at the other end, the woman said this is the Downing Street switchboard, I've got the Prime Minister for you

[00:00:33] and Tony Blair comes on and he says I want to move you, I'd like you to be Schools Minister

[00:00:38] but I did learn a lot about how to talk to people, how to listen to people

[00:00:44] and how to cope with rejection, all of which are really helpful in politics

[00:01:03] So John, you had a bit of a disturbed night last night, didn't you?

[00:01:06] Yeah I did, I had an anxiety dream last night, which was about exams

[00:01:13] which is kind of weird because I'm not actually running November exams

[00:01:17] And you're quite far away from the summer

[00:01:18] I'm quite far away from the summer, I think it must have been like in solidarity or something

[00:01:22] with people who are actually, because there are resets going on at the moment

[00:01:25] so if you're an exams officer in a school that has a sixth form

[00:01:29] then you're quite likely running GCSE resets right now

[00:01:32] Are you just worried about everyone?

[00:01:33] Yeah, just very concerned

[00:01:36] It was one of those horrible dreams like where you're trying to do stuff

[00:01:41] and everything seems impossible, you can't get anything done

[00:01:46] and I just woke up in a panic this morning

[00:01:49] And then remembered you not running exams, which was quite nice

[00:01:50] I was relieved that I wasn't running exams

[00:01:54] Anyway, good luck to anyone who is doing that

[00:01:56] I hope they go smoother than my dream did

[00:01:59] So who are we talking to this week, Seth?

[00:02:02] Yeah, so today we're talking to Jim Knight

[00:02:05] who is a pretty well-known figure in relation to education and exams

[00:02:11] He's done lots of big things in this area

[00:02:15] So he was the longest-serving schools minister of the Blair Brown years

[00:02:19] He has led and advised many organisations in education, edtech and assessment

[00:02:27] He's the chair of COBIS and EACT

[00:02:30] So yeah, quite a lot to talk to Jim about today

[00:02:34] Yeah, he's done loads and loads of interesting things in his career

[00:02:39] But as well as all the achievements he's had

[00:02:41] what we found from talking to him is he also has a really good sense of fun

[00:02:45] Really good sense of humour and we really, really enjoyed talking to him

[00:02:49] Yeah, it was good fun

[00:02:50] Yeah, you're going to enjoy this interview too

[00:02:59] Which is more interesting though, is my first question really

[00:03:02] Being a lord or a knight?

[00:03:05] Well, I've always been a knight

[00:03:07] given that it's just my surname

[00:03:13] Yeah, so I suppose being a lord in some ways is more interesting

[00:03:17] just because it's quite an interesting group of people that you get lumped together with

[00:03:20] for the rest of your life

[00:03:21] Yeah

[00:03:23] So I quite enjoy

[00:03:25] some of the conversations that I can have

[00:03:27] and the people that I can talk to

[00:03:29] That's the real privilege of it

[00:03:31] I'm sure

[00:03:32] Absolutely

[00:03:32] Absolutely

[00:03:34] And we also

[00:03:35] Second question

[00:03:36] really important before we get into the meaty stuff

[00:03:39] we have South East London in common

[00:03:42] Elton

[00:03:42] Yeah

[00:03:43] John is Elton born and bred

[00:03:45] We spend a lot of our time there

[00:03:47] We've actually done a podcast episode about Elton

[00:03:49] We did

[00:03:50] From Elton

[00:03:51] We spoke to someone who leads a special school in Elton

[00:03:54] Yeah

[00:03:54] So we went back there

[00:03:56] which was exciting

[00:03:56] But what we'd really like to know is

[00:03:58] what's your favourite bit of that area of South East London, Jim?

[00:04:02] For people who don't know it

[00:04:03] which I can't believe they wouldn't

[00:04:06] Well, I am talking to you from lovely Lewisham right now

[00:04:09] where I live

[00:04:10] And what I've grown to really love

[00:04:15] Weird as it might sound

[00:04:16] is the Broccoli Cemetery

[00:04:18] where I go and walk the dog every morning

[00:04:20] And the trees are just extraordinary and lovely

[00:04:25] And then

[00:04:27] And there's lots of

[00:04:29] It's rich with wildlife

[00:04:30] So it's a sort of real oasis of nature

[00:04:32] in amongst some extraordinary stories

[00:04:35] So there's a memorial there

[00:04:37] for example

[00:04:38] to a woman called Jane Cluson

[00:04:41] who was horribly murdered

[00:04:43] in Kidbrook Lane, Elton

[00:04:46] Back in the 19th century

[00:04:49] And there's a whole book about the story

[00:04:51] But the grave, the memorial

[00:04:55] was put there by public donation

[00:05:00] But you can stumble across these stories

[00:05:02] as you wander around

[00:05:03] the wonderful

[00:05:05] Broccoli and Ladywell Cemetery

[00:05:06] We need to go there

[00:05:07] Have you been there?

[00:05:07] Yeah, no

[00:05:08] I've never been there

[00:05:09] I've never heard of that

[00:05:09] And that's a bit of healthy history

[00:05:11] that we didn't know about

[00:05:11] And I lived in Lewisham for some time

[00:05:13] Yeah, you did, yeah

[00:05:13] My other favourite, John

[00:05:15] just to whet your appetite

[00:05:16] You can find the grave

[00:05:19] of a woman called Grace Jones

[00:05:20] Not the singer, Grace Jones

[00:05:22] She's still alive and kicking

[00:05:24] But Grace Jones

[00:05:27] She died in 2013

[00:05:31] I think from memory

[00:05:32] But she was 113

[00:05:35] And was one of the oldest women alive

[00:05:38] when she died

[00:05:39] But what particularly intrigued me

[00:05:42] was when you look at

[00:05:44] the gravestone behind her

[00:05:46] It's the rest of her family

[00:05:47] And three of her siblings

[00:05:49] all lived to the age of 97

[00:05:52] Oh my gosh

[00:05:53] And so what I imagine in my mind

[00:05:57] is her 98th birthday celebration

[00:05:59] when she outlived the other three

[00:06:04] That's incredible

[00:06:05] So did you grow up in

[00:06:07] You were born in Bexley, weren't you?

[00:06:09] So did you grow up in Elton

[00:06:10] around that sort of area?

[00:06:13] Yeah, born in Bexley

[00:06:14] My dad's work took us away

[00:06:16] for a little bit

[00:06:17] So we lived for a while

[00:06:18] in Derbyshire and Wolverhampton

[00:06:21] And then when I was, what, six or seven

[00:06:24] we came back and lived in Blackheath

[00:06:26] I went to Brooklyn's primary school

[00:06:28] before then my parents decided

[00:06:30] to send me off to Elton College

[00:06:31] So we then lived a bit in Chislehurst

[00:06:34] and Bickley

[00:06:37] And then for the last three years

[00:06:40] I boarded at Elton

[00:06:42] living in Mottingham

[00:06:43] and spending more time

[00:06:45] at the Porcupine

[00:06:46] which is now a little

[00:06:47] than I should have done

[00:06:49] I was just thinking

[00:06:50] when I'm talking about

[00:06:52] your favourite place in that area

[00:06:53] mine is mainly around pubs

[00:06:55] and restaurants

[00:06:56] and I was just thinking

[00:06:56] when you mentioned Blackheath

[00:06:58] Hair and Bullet

[00:06:59] Anyway, we are taking up your time

[00:07:01] talking about

[00:07:02] the most important things

[00:07:04] about South London

[00:07:04] I've got one more silly question

[00:07:07] and then I'll pass you over to John

[00:07:08] who will ask you for

[00:07:09] much more important things

[00:07:11] around exams

[00:07:11] which is what we're supposed

[00:07:12] to be talking about

[00:07:13] But you've obviously done

[00:07:15] some quite glamorous roles

[00:07:17] looking into your background

[00:07:19] You're obviously

[00:07:20] front line of politics

[00:07:21] has glamorous elements

[00:07:23] I'm sure not so glamorous as well

[00:07:24] but many glamorous elements

[00:07:25] running a theatre company

[00:07:27] with Sam Mendes

[00:07:29] I mean not many people

[00:07:30] have done that

[00:07:30] however

[00:07:30] John and I are particularly

[00:07:32] interested in people's more

[00:07:34] in inverted commas

[00:07:36] boring jobs

[00:07:37] because I don't personally

[00:07:38] find them the most interesting

[00:07:39] and I was really interested

[00:07:40] to hear that you were

[00:07:41] a salesperson for

[00:07:42] was it telephone directories

[00:07:44] for like a decade

[00:07:45] Telephone I sold

[00:07:46] Yeah, can you tell us

[00:07:46] about that a bit?

[00:07:48] Yeah, so I was

[00:07:49] running a theatre

[00:07:50] in Warminster

[00:07:51] at sort of the end

[00:07:54] of the Thatcher

[00:07:54] beginning of the major

[00:07:55] government

[00:07:56] and was really annoyed

[00:07:59] with how the country

[00:08:00] was being run

[00:08:00] and also how

[00:08:02] Warminster was being run

[00:08:03] by local councillors

[00:08:04] who were all

[00:08:04] on my management board

[00:08:05] so I decided to

[00:08:07] jack it all in

[00:08:07] and stand for the council

[00:08:09] which meant getting a job

[00:08:11] and my next door

[00:08:12] but one neighbour

[00:08:12] ran a telephone directory

[00:08:13] publishing company

[00:08:14] called Denton's Directories

[00:08:16] which is a particular

[00:08:18] West Country phenomenon

[00:08:18] and so I thought

[00:08:21] I'll go and do that

[00:08:22] for six months

[00:08:23] I'll just sell

[00:08:23] telephone directories

[00:08:24] ten years later

[00:08:27] I finally managed

[00:08:28] to escape

[00:08:30] having worked out

[00:08:31] to becoming a director

[00:08:31] of the company

[00:08:32] and in the end

[00:08:33] running their print

[00:08:34] side

[00:08:35] which is how I got

[00:08:36] really interested

[00:08:37] in tech actually

[00:08:38] because

[00:08:38] I was going to say

[00:08:39] I wondered

[00:08:40] whether that

[00:08:41] was the

[00:08:41] interesting link

[00:08:42] I helped them

[00:08:43] move from

[00:08:44] sort of analogue

[00:08:45] to digital

[00:08:47] around the production

[00:08:48] of the directories

[00:08:49] but I still ended up

[00:08:51] having to do a certain

[00:08:51] amount of sales

[00:08:52] which I absolutely

[00:08:53] hated

[00:08:53] but I did learn

[00:08:54] a lot about

[00:08:55] how to talk to people

[00:08:56] how to

[00:08:57] listen to people

[00:08:59] and how to cope

[00:09:00] with rejection

[00:09:03] all of which

[00:09:04] are really helpful

[00:09:04] in politics

[00:09:05] yeah

[00:09:05] absolutely

[00:09:06] and in entrepreneurship

[00:09:08] and business

[00:09:09] skills for life

[00:09:11] isn't it

[00:09:11] and you must have

[00:09:12] liked it

[00:09:12] for the decades

[00:09:13] it's quite a long time

[00:09:14] isn't it

[00:09:14] so yeah

[00:09:15] yeah well I got

[00:09:17] because I managed

[00:09:18] to get elected

[00:09:18] ultimately onto the council

[00:09:20] became mayor of Froome

[00:09:23] ran Froome

[00:09:24] for a little bit

[00:09:25] was also deputy leader

[00:09:27] of the district council

[00:09:28] that amongst other things

[00:09:29] licenses the

[00:09:29] Glastonbury festival

[00:09:30] I found other things

[00:09:31] to really

[00:09:34] invigorate my life

[00:09:35] alongside my family

[00:09:37] and so I could put up

[00:09:38] with

[00:09:40] what became

[00:09:41] four days a week

[00:09:41] at Denton's

[00:09:42] whilst I

[00:09:43] did all those other things

[00:09:44] yeah

[00:09:45] fantastic

[00:09:45] so Jim

[00:09:46] could we talk to you

[00:09:47] a bit about

[00:09:48] how you developed

[00:09:49] your interest

[00:09:50] in education

[00:09:50] and started moving

[00:09:51] into that area

[00:09:53] and also

[00:09:55] how you sort of

[00:09:56] blended

[00:09:56] your interest

[00:09:57] in education

[00:09:58] with your interest

[00:10:02] yeah so

[00:10:03] it was a Friday

[00:10:05] evening

[00:10:05] I was running

[00:10:06] a constituency

[00:10:07] surgery

[00:10:07] upstairs in

[00:10:08] Weymouth Library

[00:10:11] mobile phone

[00:10:12] rings

[00:10:13] and I

[00:10:14] apologised to my

[00:10:15] constituents

[00:10:15] saying I think

[00:10:16] I need to take it

[00:10:17] I was right

[00:10:18] because at the other

[00:10:19] the woman said

[00:10:20] this is the Downing Street

[00:10:21] switchboard

[00:10:21] I've got the Prime Minister

[00:10:22] for you

[00:10:22] and Tony Black

[00:10:23] comes on

[00:10:23] and he says

[00:10:26] hi Jim

[00:10:26] you're doing a really

[00:10:27] good job

[00:10:27] as Rural Affairs

[00:10:28] Minister

[00:10:29] but I want to

[00:10:30] move you

[00:10:30] I'd like you

[00:10:31] to be Schools

[00:10:31] Minister

[00:10:32] and I want you

[00:10:34] to work really

[00:10:35] closely with

[00:10:35] Andrew Donis

[00:10:37] and are you up

[00:10:38] for it

[00:10:38] and I kind of

[00:10:40] obviously said

[00:10:43] and that began

[00:10:44] my love affair

[00:10:45] with education

[00:10:45] really

[00:10:46] I had previously

[00:10:47] been a school

[00:10:47] governor

[00:10:48] when I was

[00:10:48] in Warminster

[00:10:51] it was really

[00:10:52] from that point

[00:10:53] onwards

[00:10:53] that

[00:10:54] I fell in love

[00:10:55] with

[00:10:56] what

[00:10:57] someone reminded me

[00:10:59] a woman called

[00:10:59] Sarah Ledger

[00:11:00] who I was on a

[00:11:00] panel with

[00:11:01] this week

[00:11:02] she reminded me

[00:11:03] of the Simon

[00:11:04] Sinek stuff

[00:11:05] around game theory

[00:11:05] and the fact

[00:11:07] that education

[00:11:07] is an infinite game

[00:11:08] is not a finite one

[00:11:09] there's not

[00:11:10] an answer to all

[00:11:11] the questions

[00:11:12] in education

[00:11:13] and our job

[00:11:14] really is to be

[00:11:15] good custodians

[00:11:16] of the education

[00:11:17] system

[00:11:18] so that it's

[00:11:19] in a better

[00:11:19] shape for the

[00:11:20] next generation

[00:11:20] than how we

[00:11:21] found it

[00:11:22] and so that

[00:11:24] the fact

[00:11:25] that we're

[00:11:26] always learning

[00:11:28] ironically

[00:11:29] is the thing

[00:11:30] that really

[00:11:31] keeps me

[00:11:32] interested

[00:11:32] and excited

[00:11:33] about it

[00:11:33] and then

[00:11:34] technology

[00:11:34] is this

[00:11:38] feature

[00:11:39] that we've

[00:11:40] mostly not

[00:11:41] got right

[00:11:42] in education

[00:11:43] in terms of

[00:11:43] how it's used

[00:11:44] but it has

[00:11:46] the potential

[00:11:47] and at

[00:11:47] times

[00:11:48] it can

[00:11:49] realise

[00:11:49] potential

[00:11:50] really

[00:11:51] help

[00:11:51] teachers

[00:11:52] and help

[00:11:52] learners

[00:11:53] and help

[00:11:54] stretch

[00:11:54] what's

[00:11:55] possible

[00:11:55] and ultimately

[00:11:56] allow us to

[00:11:57] do things

[00:11:57] that were

[00:11:57] previously

[00:11:58] inconceivable

[00:11:59] and that

[00:12:00] remains

[00:12:01] really exciting

[00:12:01] as we keep

[00:12:02] travelling on

[00:12:04] through this

[00:12:04] journey with

[00:12:05] education

[00:12:05] in pursuit

[00:12:07] of the

[00:12:07] infinite game

[00:12:08] can I ask

[00:12:09] you Jim

[00:12:09] what you

[00:12:09] think we

[00:12:09] haven't

[00:12:10] got right

[00:12:10] then

[00:12:11] if you

[00:12:11] say that

[00:12:12] we haven't

[00:12:13] quite cracked

[00:12:13] in terms

[00:12:15] technology

[00:12:16] education

[00:12:16] what's

[00:12:17] lacking

[00:12:18] I think

[00:12:19] an example

[00:12:20] would be

[00:12:22] when I was

[00:12:23] schools

[00:12:23] minister

[00:12:25] Sophie

[00:12:25] at the

[00:12:38] grant

[00:12:38] where we

[00:12:38] gave out

[00:12:39] an awful

[00:12:39] lot of

[00:12:39] public

[00:12:39] money

[00:12:41] substantial

[00:12:42] amount

[00:12:42] of it

[00:12:42] was spent

[00:12:43] interactive

[00:12:44] whiteboards

[00:12:44] which

[00:12:45] is pretty

[00:12:46] good

[00:12:46] technology

[00:12:48] didn't

[00:12:49] accompany

[00:12:50] with

[00:12:50] really

[00:12:50] much

[00:12:50] training

[00:12:51] I'm grinning

[00:12:52] because

[00:12:52] I was

[00:12:53] teaching

[00:12:53] in a

[00:12:54] specialist

[00:12:54] language

[00:12:54] college

[00:12:55] in London

[00:12:55] at the

[00:12:56] time

[00:12:56] and I

[00:12:56] remember

[00:12:56] just

[00:12:57] literally

[00:12:57] one day

[00:12:58] everything

[00:12:58] interactive

[00:12:59] whiteboards

[00:12:59] absolutely

[00:13:00] know how

[00:13:00] to use

[00:13:08] this

[00:13:08] at a

[00:13:09] time

[00:13:09] when

[00:13:09] Apple

[00:13:10] were

[00:13:10] bringing

[00:13:10] iPads

[00:13:11] iPhones

[00:13:13] without

[00:13:14] instructions

[00:13:14] on how

[00:13:15] to use

[00:13:15] them

[00:13:15] and expected

[00:13:16] people

[00:13:16] just to

[00:13:16] get on

[00:13:17] and use

[00:13:17] them

[00:13:17] and we

[00:13:17] kind of

[00:13:18] did the

[00:13:18] same

[00:13:18] with

[00:13:18] interactive

[00:13:19] whiteboards

[00:13:19] but it's

[00:13:20] no surprise

[00:13:21] then that

[00:13:21] too often

[00:13:22] they're used

[00:13:23] as projector

[00:13:23] screens and

[00:13:24] as blackboards

[00:13:25] but with

[00:13:26] the added

[00:13:27] pain of

[00:13:27] having to

[00:13:28] turn them

[00:13:29] them

[00:13:30] going

[00:13:31] wrong

[00:13:31] and all

[00:13:31] the things

[00:13:32] that go

[00:13:32] with that

[00:13:35] there's

[00:13:35] been a

[00:13:36] slight

[00:13:36] shift

[00:13:36] pedagogy

[00:13:37] but not

[00:13:37] much

[00:13:38] and it's

[00:13:39] hard to

[00:13:39] argue

[00:13:39] that they've

[00:13:40] added

[00:13:40] anything

[00:13:41] like the

[00:13:41] value

[00:13:41] that they

[00:13:42] needed

[00:13:42] to have

[00:13:42] done

[00:13:42] to justify

[00:13:43] the amount

[00:13:43] of money

[00:13:43] that they've

[00:13:44] cost

[00:13:47] that's

[00:13:48] an example

[00:13:48] where

[00:13:50] we've

[00:13:51] introduced

[00:13:51] technology

[00:13:52] we've

[00:13:53] expected

[00:13:53] teachers

[00:13:53] to pick

[00:13:54] it up

[00:13:54] and run

[00:13:55] with it

[00:13:55] and work

[00:13:55] out how

[00:13:56] to use

[00:13:56] and how

[00:13:57] to adapt

[00:13:59] to what

[00:13:59] they need

[00:14:00] to do

[00:14:00] in their

[00:14:00] classroom

[00:14:02] it's not

[00:14:02] generally

[00:14:03] been very

[00:14:03] well led

[00:14:04] and it's

[00:14:05] not generally

[00:14:06] come with the

[00:14:07] professional development

[00:14:07] that it should

[00:14:08] so is there

[00:14:09] sorry Jim

[00:14:10] to interrupt you

[00:14:11] is there

[00:14:11] the big issue

[00:14:12] then you think

[00:14:13] is like a

[00:14:13] communication

[00:14:14] issue

[00:14:14] so it's

[00:14:15] communication

[00:14:15] and training

[00:14:16] effectively

[00:14:17] communicating

[00:14:17] to people

[00:14:18] why this

[00:14:19] can help

[00:14:20] and why it's

[00:14:20] useful

[00:14:20] but then also

[00:14:21] giving people

[00:14:22] the skills

[00:14:23] to be able

[00:14:23] to use it

[00:14:23] yeah that's

[00:14:25] right back

[00:14:25] in the day

[00:14:26] we had an

[00:14:26] organisation

[00:14:26] called

[00:14:27] vector

[00:14:27] who is

[00:14:28] a body

[00:14:29] responsible

[00:14:29] for overseeing

[00:14:30] the introduction

[00:14:31] and the

[00:14:32] use of

[00:14:33] technology

[00:14:33] in schools

[00:14:34] and colleges

[00:14:34] and they

[00:14:35] did a

[00:14:36] really good

[00:14:37] piece of

[00:14:37] research

[00:14:37] which showed

[00:14:38] that the

[00:14:39] implementation

[00:14:40] of technology

[00:14:41] in schools

[00:14:42] is successful

[00:14:43] where it is

[00:14:44] really well

[00:14:44] so that

[00:14:45] means the

[00:14:46] school

[00:14:46] leadership

[00:14:47] understand

[00:14:47] why the

[00:14:48] technology

[00:14:49] is being

[00:14:49] procured

[00:14:50] understand how

[00:14:51] it's going

[00:14:51] to change

[00:14:52] teaching

[00:14:52] and learning

[00:14:53] and is

[00:14:53] there in

[00:14:54] their capacity

[00:14:54] as the

[00:14:55] leaders of

[00:14:55] teaching

[00:14:55] and learning

[00:14:56] to ensure

[00:14:57] that that

[00:14:57] then delivers

[00:14:58] yeah

[00:14:58] and too

[00:15:00] often

[00:15:01] that's just

[00:15:01] not the

[00:15:02] case

[00:15:02] too often

[00:15:03] the school

[00:15:03] leaders

[00:15:04] they know

[00:15:05] how they

[00:15:06] teach

[00:15:06] they know

[00:15:07] how that

[00:15:08] works

[00:15:10] and they

[00:15:11] have got

[00:15:11] a lot

[00:15:14] you know

[00:15:16] fair play

[00:15:17] I don't

[00:15:18] blame

[00:15:18] them

[00:15:21] they

[00:15:21] shouldn't

[00:15:21] be spending

[00:15:22] the money

[00:15:22] unless they

[00:15:22] really know

[00:15:23] how it's

[00:15:24] going to be

[00:15:24] used

[00:15:24] yeah

[00:15:25] I mean

[00:15:25] one of the

[00:15:25] things I've

[00:15:26] noticed over

[00:15:26] time I think

[00:15:27] is like an

[00:15:27] inconsistency

[00:15:28] so what you

[00:15:28] get is you

[00:15:29] get these

[00:15:29] new tools

[00:15:30] and then you

[00:15:30] get a

[00:15:31] portion of

[00:15:32] the staff

[00:15:33] in the school

[00:15:39] consistently

[00:15:39] and then

[00:15:40] a portion

[00:15:41] who won't

[00:15:42] and then you

[00:15:42] just get an

[00:15:43] inconsistent

[00:15:43] approach

[00:15:44] like across

[00:15:45] the school

[00:15:46] yeah that's

[00:15:47] that's right

[00:15:47] I was reminded

[00:15:48] again by

[00:15:49] someone this

[00:15:50] week of the

[00:15:51] adoption curve

[00:15:51] which I hadn't

[00:15:52] really thought

[00:15:52] about for a

[00:15:53] couple of years

[00:15:53] but you know

[00:15:54] the early adopters

[00:15:55] are there

[00:15:59] whether or

[00:16:00] you know

[00:16:00] essentially

[00:16:01] without leadership

[00:16:02] you're not going

[00:16:03] to move it

[00:16:03] through the

[00:16:04] adoption curve

[00:16:05] from you know

[00:16:06] the innovators

[00:16:07] through the early

[00:16:07] adopters to the

[00:16:08] the late adopters

[00:16:09] do you think

[00:16:10] sorry Jim

[00:16:11] do you think

[00:16:11] there's anything

[00:16:12] obviously like

[00:16:13] leadership is one

[00:16:14] to be able to

[00:16:14] lead the change

[00:16:16] to introduce

[00:16:16] these tools

[00:16:17] but do you

[00:16:17] think there's

[00:16:18] also anything

[00:16:18] in terms of

[00:16:19] like the way

[00:16:20] that the

[00:16:21] companies who

[00:16:22] produce these

[00:16:23] products

[00:16:25] either push

[00:16:27] them into

[00:16:27] schools or

[00:16:29] are there

[00:16:30] basically are

[00:16:30] there any sort

[00:16:31] of errors that

[00:16:31] you think that

[00:16:32] happen on that

[00:16:33] side as well

[00:16:35] yeah massively

[00:16:37] of course it's

[00:16:38] not all down

[00:16:40] procurement

[00:16:41] and implementation

[00:16:43] it is also

[00:16:44] too often

[00:16:46] we have

[00:16:47] products that

[00:16:48] are excited

[00:16:49] by the technology

[00:16:50] before they're

[00:16:51] excited about

[00:16:51] the learning

[00:16:52] and they're

[00:16:53] excited about

[00:16:53] the business

[00:16:54] opportunity

[00:16:54] before they're

[00:16:55] excited about

[00:16:55] children

[00:16:56] definitely

[00:16:56] and so

[00:16:58] they'll go

[00:16:59] out and

[00:16:59] they'll sell

[00:17:00] it and

[00:17:01] some of it

[00:17:01] snake oil

[00:17:02] anyway

[00:17:02] so navigating

[00:17:05] all of that

[00:17:05] that's one of

[00:17:05] the reasons

[00:17:06] why I think

[00:17:07] having something

[00:17:08] doesn't have to

[00:17:09] be vector

[00:17:10] we shouldn't

[00:17:12] resurrect

[00:17:12] something from

[00:17:13] the dead

[00:17:13] but a body

[00:17:16] that is

[00:17:17] there to be

[00:17:18] able to

[00:17:18] advise school

[00:17:20] leaders

[00:17:20] people who

[00:17:21] are making

[00:17:22] purchasing

[00:17:22] decisions about

[00:17:23] what works

[00:17:24] and why it

[00:17:26] works

[00:17:26] and in what

[00:17:27] circumstances

[00:17:27] it works

[00:17:28] for what

[00:17:28] sort of

[00:17:28] children

[00:17:28] in what

[00:17:29] sort of

[00:17:29] community

[00:17:30] it works

[00:17:31] and we've

[00:17:32] got this

[00:17:32] AI revolution

[00:17:33] coming at

[00:17:35] and it

[00:17:36] is going to

[00:17:36] change the

[00:17:37] way we

[00:17:37] all work

[00:17:38] including

[00:17:38] teachers

[00:17:39] and leaders

[00:17:39] and it's

[00:17:41] pretty scary

[00:17:41] and it already

[00:17:43] is isn't it

[00:17:44] even if people

[00:17:44] don't realise

[00:17:45] that you're

[00:17:45] using it

[00:17:46] we're using

[00:17:46] it all the

[00:17:47] time

[00:17:47] and again

[00:17:48] that patchiness

[00:17:48] that was

[00:17:49] talking about

[00:17:49] that inconsistency

[00:17:50] like some

[00:17:50] people have

[00:17:51] grabbed these

[00:17:51] tools and

[00:17:51] are using

[00:17:52] them

[00:17:52] some people

[00:17:53] haven't

[00:17:53] and that

[00:17:53] sort of

[00:17:54] thing

[00:17:54] I do a

[00:17:55] bit of

[00:17:55] work

[00:17:56] I'm a

[00:17:56] director of

[00:17:57] educate

[00:17:57] ventures

[00:17:58] research

[00:17:58] which

[00:18:00] Professor

[00:18:00] Rose

[00:18:01] Luckin

[00:18:01] runs

[00:18:01] and they've

[00:18:02] published

[00:18:02] a report

[00:18:04] recently

[00:18:04] which shows

[00:18:05] that it's

[00:18:06] the independent

[00:18:07] private schools

[00:18:08] who are

[00:18:10] using it

[00:18:11] much more

[00:18:12] effectively

[00:18:12] they are

[00:18:13] embedding their

[00:18:14] advantage

[00:18:15] if you like

[00:18:17] and then

[00:18:18] at the other

[00:18:18] end obviously

[00:18:19] when you've

[00:18:21] children

[00:18:22] from

[00:18:22] disadvantaged

[00:18:23] homes

[00:18:23] who haven't

[00:18:24] got data

[00:18:25] at home

[00:18:25] they haven't

[00:18:25] got devices

[00:18:26] at home

[00:18:29] the opportunity

[00:18:30] for them

[00:18:31] to be able

[00:18:31] to use it

[00:18:32] as learners

[00:18:33] is obviously

[00:18:34] very limited

[00:18:37] and then

[00:18:38] you've got

[00:18:38] generations

[00:18:38] of teachers

[00:18:39] who are

[00:18:39] really

[00:18:39] struggling

[00:18:40] but generally

[00:18:40] students

[00:18:41] are way ahead

[00:18:41] of the

[00:18:41] teachers

[00:18:42] in their

[00:18:42] usage

[00:18:42] of it

[00:18:42] absolutely

[00:18:43] and on

[00:18:44] that

[00:18:46] obviously

[00:18:46] main audience

[00:18:48] is people

[00:18:49] who are on

[00:18:49] the front line

[00:18:50] of managing

[00:18:50] exams

[00:18:51] mainly in

[00:18:51] secondary

[00:18:52] schools

[00:18:52] in the UK

[00:18:53] and internationally

[00:18:55] what do you

[00:18:55] think are

[00:18:56] the kind

[00:18:56] of exciting

[00:18:57] opportunities

[00:18:58] developments

[00:18:59] but also

[00:18:59] challenges

[00:19:01] around AI

[00:19:02] but particularly

[00:19:03] in terms of

[00:19:04] assessment

[00:19:05] yeah

[00:19:06] I think

[00:19:07] there is

[00:19:07] quite a lot

[00:19:08] that we

[00:19:08] could get

[00:19:09] excited about

[00:19:11] because I

[00:19:12] somewhat

[00:19:13] frustrated

[00:19:13] that we

[00:19:15] still think

[00:19:15] for example

[00:19:16] the best

[00:19:17] way to

[00:19:18] assess

[00:19:18] whether or

[00:19:19] a young

[00:19:19] person

[00:19:20] is going

[00:19:20] to work

[00:19:21] at a

[00:19:22] university

[00:19:23] and admit

[00:19:23] them

[00:19:24] into a

[00:19:24] university

[00:19:24] is by

[00:19:25] setting

[00:19:26] them

[00:19:26] paper

[00:19:26] and pen

[00:19:27] exams

[00:19:28] on small

[00:19:28] tables

[00:19:29] in large

[00:19:29] sports halls

[00:19:30] every summer

[00:19:31] there are

[00:19:32] better ways

[00:19:33] than the

[00:19:34] way we do

[00:19:35] A levels

[00:19:35] or indeed

[00:19:36] A levels

[00:19:37] per se

[00:19:38] to do

[00:19:39] university

[00:19:39] admissions

[00:19:40] and it

[00:19:40] would transform

[00:19:40] our school

[00:19:41] system

[00:19:41] if we

[00:19:42] were to

[00:19:42] move

[00:19:43] to a

[00:19:43] more

[00:19:43] rounded

[00:19:44] measure

[00:19:44] what

[00:19:45] do you

[00:19:46] think

[00:19:46] that is

[00:19:47] well

[00:19:48] really

[00:19:48] interested

[00:19:49] portfolio

[00:19:50] ideas

[00:19:50] that

[00:19:51] people

[00:19:51] like

[00:19:52] rethinking

[00:19:52] assessment

[00:19:55] pursuing

[00:19:56] where

[00:19:57] of course

[00:19:59] it must

[00:20:00] include

[00:20:01] a certain

[00:20:01] amount

[00:20:03] summative

[00:20:03] assessment

[00:20:04] some

[00:20:05] of which

[00:20:06] might be

[00:20:06] written

[00:20:06] essays

[00:20:09] what AI

[00:20:10] could allow

[00:20:11] us to do

[00:20:12] for example

[00:20:12] you know

[00:20:13] a viva

[00:20:13] is a

[00:20:14] very long

[00:20:15] established

[00:20:16] traditional

[00:20:17] form of

[00:20:17] assessment

[00:20:18] but it's

[00:20:18] really intensive

[00:20:19] in terms

[00:20:21] of the

[00:20:21] resource

[00:20:21] but in

[00:20:23] this day

[00:20:23] and age

[00:20:25] technology

[00:20:25] does now

[00:20:26] exist

[00:20:27] for an

[00:20:29] AI to

[00:20:29] stimulate

[00:20:31] questions

[00:20:34] someone

[00:20:35] who's

[00:20:35] being

[00:20:35] examined

[00:20:36] if that's

[00:20:36] what we

[00:20:36] chose

[00:20:37] to do

[00:20:37] or it

[00:20:38] could be

[00:20:38] a human

[00:20:40] responses

[00:20:41] can be

[00:20:42] recorded

[00:20:42] they can

[00:20:43] be turned

[00:20:44] from speech

[00:20:44] to text

[00:20:45] they can

[00:20:45] analysed

[00:20:46] by AI

[00:20:48] so that

[00:20:48] an AI

[00:20:50] analysis

[00:20:50] can then

[00:20:51] inform

[00:20:51] the human

[00:20:52] examiner

[00:20:52] around

[00:20:53] what's

[00:20:54] happened

[00:20:54] in the

[00:20:55] viva

[00:20:55] and that

[00:20:56] in my

[00:20:57] head

[00:20:57] makes it

[00:20:58] much more

[00:20:59] feasible

[00:20:59] for us

[00:20:59] to start

[00:21:00] to think

[00:21:00] with for

[00:21:01] example

[00:21:03] we know

[00:21:04] that the

[00:21:04] extended

[00:21:05] project

[00:21:05] qualifications

[00:21:06] are the

[00:21:07] best

[00:21:07] predictor

[00:21:08] that we

[00:21:08] have at

[00:21:09] moment

[00:21:09] of how

[00:21:10] successful

[00:21:10] someone's

[00:21:11] going to

[00:21:11] be at

[00:21:11] university

[00:21:12] but we're

[00:21:12] worried

[00:21:13] about

[00:21:13] making

[00:21:14] easier

[00:21:14] for them

[00:21:14] to cheat

[00:21:16] when

[00:21:17] those

[00:21:17] written

[00:21:19] were

[00:21:19] examine

[00:21:20] extended

[00:21:21] projects

[00:21:21] by a

[00:21:22] viva

[00:21:23] which is

[00:21:23] how you

[00:21:24] then

[00:21:24] would

[00:21:25] examined

[00:21:25] on your

[00:21:25] doctorate

[00:21:26] later on

[00:21:27] in your

[00:21:28] educational

[00:21:28] journey

[00:21:28] if you

[00:21:29] went

[00:21:29] that far

[00:21:29] then

[00:21:32] wouldn't

[00:21:32] we be

[00:21:32] exploring

[00:21:33] that

[00:21:33] we know

[00:21:34] that

[00:21:34] with

[00:21:35] music

[00:21:35] dance

[00:21:35] drama

[00:21:36] graded

[00:21:36] exams

[00:21:38] lean

[00:21:38] more

[00:21:39] expertise

[00:21:41] examiner

[00:21:44] assessor

[00:21:44] informing

[00:21:45] a subjective

[00:21:46] judgment

[00:21:46] and I think

[00:21:47] AI will

[00:21:48] help us

[00:21:49] moderate

[00:21:50] those

[00:21:50] subjective

[00:21:51] judgments

[00:21:51] and help

[00:21:52] us to

[00:21:52] think about

[00:21:53] using them

[00:21:53] more widely

[00:21:54] than we do

[00:21:55] at the

[00:21:55] moment

[00:21:55] one of the

[00:21:57] things about

[00:21:57] the extended

[00:21:57] project

[00:21:58] qualification

[00:21:59] is quite

[00:21:59] good

[00:21:59] and it

[00:22:00] is like

[00:22:00] a protection

[00:22:01] against that

[00:22:02] is the

[00:22:02] fact that

[00:22:03] a lot

[00:22:04] of what

[00:22:05] you're

[00:22:05] getting

[00:22:05] assessed

[00:22:06] on is

[00:22:06] really

[00:22:07] necessarily

[00:22:08] content

[00:22:08] it's

[00:22:09] process

[00:22:09] that you

[00:22:10] followed

[00:22:11] and the

[00:22:11] that

[00:22:11] you've

[00:22:11] self

[00:22:12] reflected

[00:22:12] and all

[00:22:13] that

[00:22:13] sort of

[00:22:14] stuff

[00:22:14] and that

[00:22:15] reasonably

[00:22:16] immune

[00:22:17] what you

[00:22:19] might

[00:22:19] see as

[00:22:19] an abuse

[00:22:20] technology

[00:22:21] just to

[00:22:22] produce

[00:22:22] content

[00:22:23] it is

[00:22:24] and obviously

[00:22:25] our young

[00:22:25] people are

[00:22:26] going to be

[00:22:27] even those

[00:22:28] who are

[00:22:28] leaving

[00:22:28] school

[00:22:29] their

[00:22:30] working

[00:22:30] lives

[00:22:31] will be

[00:22:32] collaboration

[00:22:32] with

[00:22:33] machines

[00:22:35] and so

[00:22:36] part of

[00:22:37] responsibility

[00:22:38] is to

[00:22:39] nurture

[00:22:40] in them

[00:22:40] some of

[00:22:41] skills

[00:22:42] confidence

[00:22:42] and competence

[00:22:43] to prompt

[00:22:44] engineer

[00:22:44] to ask

[00:22:46] curious

[00:22:46] questions

[00:22:47] and to

[00:22:48] have a

[00:22:48] dialogue

[00:22:49] with the

[00:22:49] not to

[00:22:50] use it

[00:22:50] like

[00:22:51] search

[00:22:51] but to

[00:22:52] have a

[00:22:52] dialogue

[00:22:52] where

[00:22:53] you keep

[00:22:54] refining

[00:22:54] the answer

[00:22:55] where you

[00:22:55] might break

[00:22:56] down

[00:22:56] the question

[00:22:58] and you

[00:22:59] know

[00:22:59] so if

[00:22:59] you're

[00:23:00] wanting to

[00:23:00] produce an

[00:23:01] extended

[00:23:01] piece of

[00:23:01] work

[00:23:03] you might

[00:23:04] well

[00:23:04] I want

[00:23:04] to do

[00:23:05] this

[00:23:05] piece

[00:23:06] work

[00:23:07] suggest

[00:23:08] to me

[00:23:08] structure

[00:23:09] piece

[00:23:09] work

[00:23:10] and then

[00:23:10] you can

[00:23:11] have a

[00:23:11] conversation

[00:23:12] with the

[00:23:12] about

[00:23:13] structure

[00:23:13] you nail

[00:23:14] down

[00:23:14] structure

[00:23:16] with

[00:23:16] your

[00:23:17] collaborator

[00:23:17] and then

[00:23:18] you can

[00:23:18] start

[00:23:19] to then

[00:23:19] delve

[00:23:19] into

[00:23:20] individual

[00:23:21] ingredients

[00:23:21] within

[00:23:33] what

[00:23:39] questions

[00:23:40] that

[00:23:40] being

[00:23:40] asked

[00:23:42] machine

[00:23:43] what

[00:23:43] does

[00:23:43] that

[00:23:44] tell

[00:23:44] about

[00:23:45] intelligence

[00:23:45] and the

[00:23:46] curiosity

[00:23:46] and the

[00:23:47] knowledge

[00:23:47] that

[00:23:47] individual

[00:23:49] I think

[00:23:49] those are

[00:23:49] interesting

[00:23:50] questions

[00:23:50] yeah

[00:23:51] that's

[00:23:52] fascinating

[00:23:52] can I

[00:23:53] just ask

[00:23:54] about

[00:23:55] there's

[00:23:56] obviously

[00:23:56] a review

[00:23:57] going on

[00:23:58] at the

[00:23:58] moment

[00:23:58] curriculum

[00:23:59] assessment

[00:24:00] have

[00:24:02] role

[00:24:02] that

[00:24:03] involved

[00:24:06] involved

[00:24:06] I did

[00:24:07] manage

[00:24:08] to speak

[00:24:09] Becky

[00:24:09] Francis

[00:24:10] yesterday

[00:24:12] managed

[00:24:14] collar

[00:24:15] a member

[00:24:16] of the

[00:24:17] panel

[00:24:18] who was

[00:24:19] innocently

[00:24:20] travelling

[00:24:20] back from

[00:24:21] Manchester

[00:24:21] on a

[00:24:21] train

[00:24:22] so I

[00:24:22] spent

[00:24:23] hours

[00:24:23] talking

[00:24:24] about

[00:24:25] curriculum

[00:24:25] assessment

[00:24:25] review

[00:24:26] on the

[00:24:27] train

[00:24:27] journey

[00:24:27] poor

[00:24:28] woman

[00:24:33] hopeful

[00:24:34] that

[00:24:34] I will

[00:24:35] put in

[00:24:36] submission

[00:24:37] strongly

[00:24:38] urge

[00:24:39] everyone

[00:24:39] to do

[00:24:39] that

[00:24:43] hopeful

[00:24:43] that

[00:24:44] Becky

[00:24:45] will

[00:24:45] want

[00:24:45] some

[00:24:49] timers

[00:24:49] grey

[00:24:50] beards

[00:24:52] come

[00:24:53] just

[00:24:54] have

[00:24:54] session

[00:24:54] once

[00:24:54] they've

[00:24:57] evidence

[00:24:59] submissions

[00:25:00] chance

[00:25:01] look

[00:25:01] that

[00:25:02] think

[00:25:02] about

[00:25:03] then

[00:25:05] people

[00:25:05] like

[00:25:06] Estelle

[00:25:06] Morris

[00:25:07] Nick

[00:25:07] Gibb

[00:25:08] David

[00:25:09] Blunkett

[00:25:10] myself

[00:25:11] Nicky

[00:25:12] Morgan

[00:25:12] people

[00:25:13] who've

[00:25:13] stuck

[00:25:15] Baker

[00:25:15] who've

[00:25:16] stuck

[00:25:16] with

[00:25:16] education

[00:25:17] through

[00:25:18] thick

[00:25:18] and thin

[00:25:19] since

[00:25:19] they've

[00:25:19] been

[00:25:19] office

[00:25:22] just

[00:25:23] bounce

[00:25:24] some

[00:25:24] ideas

[00:25:27] experience

[00:25:27] about

[00:25:28] what

[00:25:28] works

[00:25:29] from

[00:25:29] past

[00:25:30] Absolutely

[00:25:30] because

[00:25:31] it's

[00:25:31] cyclical

[00:25:31] isn't

[00:25:32] education

[00:25:33] things

[00:25:33] come

[00:25:33] back

[00:25:34] conversations

[00:25:35] happen

[00:25:35] again

[00:25:35] comes

[00:25:35] back

[00:25:36] yeah

[00:25:36] I was

[00:25:37] talking

[00:25:38] someone

[00:25:40] room

[00:25:40] when

[00:25:41] when

[00:25:41] Gowden

[00:25:43] Gibb

[00:25:43] did a

[00:25:45] review

[00:25:45] of the

[00:25:45] curriculum

[00:25:47] when

[00:25:49] politicians

[00:25:49] were

[00:25:49] saying

[00:25:50] most

[00:25:51] of the

[00:25:51] problem

[00:25:52] there's

[00:25:52] just

[00:25:52] too much

[00:25:53] content

[00:25:53] in the

[00:25:54] curriculum

[00:25:54] we need

[00:25:54] to strip

[00:25:54] it out

[00:25:55] and get

[00:25:55] back to

[00:25:56] the big

[00:25:56] ideas

[00:25:56] of the

[00:25:57] subjects

[00:25:59] we've

[00:25:59] curriculum

[00:26:00] that's

[00:26:00] again

[00:26:00] bloated

[00:26:01] full

[00:26:01] content

[00:26:02] we need

[00:26:02] to strip

[00:26:03] back

[00:26:03] to the

[00:26:03] ideas

[00:26:04] subjects

[00:26:05] that's

[00:26:05] just

[00:26:06] cycle

[00:26:07] what

[00:26:07] happens

[00:26:09] part

[00:26:10] this

[00:26:10] process

[00:26:11] just

[00:26:11] that

[00:26:14] fallback

[00:26:15] position

[00:26:16] that's

[00:26:17] that

[00:26:17] happened

[00:26:19] that would

[00:26:19] be a

[00:26:19] good

[00:26:20] thing

[00:26:20] and then

[00:26:21] could

[00:26:21] trust

[00:26:22] pedagogy

[00:26:23] to do

[00:26:23] breadth

[00:26:24] to do

[00:26:24] relevance

[00:26:25] real life

[00:26:25] skills

[00:26:26] that

[00:26:26] kind

[00:26:26] stuff

[00:26:27] mean

[00:26:27] you've

[00:26:27] obviously

[00:26:28] talked

[00:26:28] about

[00:26:29] some

[00:26:29] quite

[00:26:29] ideas

[00:26:30] around

[00:26:31] technology

[00:26:34] review

[00:26:34] limited

[00:26:35] in the

[00:26:36] sense

[00:26:36] that

[00:26:36] it's

[00:26:38] going

[00:26:38] full

[00:26:38] transformation

[00:26:40] system

[00:26:40] well

[00:26:42] assessment

[00:26:43] review

[00:26:43] itself

[00:26:44] been

[00:26:44] really

[00:26:45] clear

[00:26:46] remit

[00:26:46] what

[00:26:46] Becky

[00:26:47] said

[00:26:48] that

[00:26:48] they're

[00:26:48] interested

[00:26:50] evolution

[00:26:51] revolution

[00:26:54] think

[00:26:54] that

[00:26:56] right

[00:26:56] judgment

[00:26:58] sort

[00:26:58] reluctant

[00:26:59] to say

[00:27:00] admit

[00:27:00] because

[00:27:02] impatient

[00:27:04] when I

[00:27:05] talk

[00:27:07] people

[00:27:07] work

[00:27:07] schools

[00:27:08] there

[00:27:11] tension

[00:27:11] they

[00:27:12] terrified

[00:27:13] workload

[00:27:14] attached

[00:27:14] change

[00:27:14] when

[00:27:15] they're

[00:27:15] already

[00:27:15] overworked

[00:27:17] they're

[00:27:18] excited

[00:27:18] about

[00:27:19] opportunity

[00:27:19] change

[00:27:20] moving

[00:27:22] slightly

[00:27:23] less

[00:27:24] formulaic

[00:27:25] monotonous

[00:27:27] churn

[00:27:28] teaching

[00:27:30] examining

[00:27:33] where

[00:27:34] potentially

[00:27:34] we can

[00:27:35] I had

[00:27:36] a great

[00:27:37] conversation

[00:27:37] with the

[00:27:37] Institute

[00:27:38] Physics

[00:27:38] which

[00:27:38] really

[00:27:38] stuck

[00:27:39] in my

[00:27:39] mind

[00:27:39] about

[00:27:41] they

[00:27:41] don't

[00:27:41] have

[00:27:41] time

[00:27:42] teach

[00:27:42] ideas

[00:27:43] science

[00:27:43] well

[00:27:45] going

[00:27:46] stay

[00:27:46] profession

[00:27:47] haven't

[00:27:47] time

[00:27:48] teach

[00:27:49] things

[00:27:49] that

[00:27:49] most

[00:27:49] exciting

[00:27:50] most

[00:27:50] interesting

[00:27:51] reason

[00:27:51] went

[00:27:51] into

[00:27:52] exactly

[00:27:54] brilliant

[00:27:55] can I

[00:27:57] just

[00:27:57] ask you

[00:27:57] about

[00:27:57] something

[00:27:57] said

[00:27:58] once

[00:27:58] about

[00:27:59] qualifications

[00:27:59] generally

[00:28:01] said

[00:28:01] that

[00:28:01] they

[00:28:03] more

[00:28:03] than

[00:28:03] proxy

[00:28:04] what

[00:28:04] person

[00:28:06] explain

[00:28:07] what

[00:28:07] mean

[00:28:07] that

[00:28:08] just

[00:28:08] elaborate

[00:28:10] yeah

[00:28:12] worry

[00:28:12] that

[00:28:13] have

[00:28:14] whole

[00:28:16] system

[00:28:17] education

[00:28:18] that's

[00:28:18] obsessed

[00:28:19] qualifications

[00:28:20] being

[00:28:22] proxy

[00:28:22] they

[00:28:24] know

[00:28:24] when

[00:28:24] you're

[00:28:25] employer

[00:28:25] when

[00:28:25] you're

[00:28:26] admissions

[00:28:26] tutor

[00:28:27] know

[00:28:27] whatever

[00:28:28] want

[00:28:29] know

[00:28:29] what

[00:28:30] individual

[00:28:30] capable

[00:28:32] look

[00:28:32] qualification

[00:28:34] being

[00:28:34] indicator

[00:28:35] proxy

[00:28:36] their

[00:28:36] capability

[00:28:41] individual

[00:28:41] has a

[00:28:42] more

[00:28:43] than

[00:28:43] their

[00:28:44] suite

[00:28:44] qualifications

[00:28:45] that's

[00:28:45] interested

[00:28:46] portfolio

[00:28:48] just

[00:28:48] push

[00:28:48] that

[00:28:49] think

[00:28:49] that

[00:28:50] genuinely

[00:28:51] believe

[00:28:51] that

[00:28:52] true

[00:28:52] that

[00:28:52] when

[00:28:52] someone

[00:28:53] sits

[00:28:53] front

[00:28:53] employer

[00:28:54] what

[00:28:55] employer

[00:28:56] prioritizing

[00:28:57] qualifications

[00:28:58] they're

[00:29:00] well

[00:29:02] necessarily

[00:29:03] most

[00:29:04] employers

[00:29:05] they

[00:29:07] blessed

[00:29:07] enough

[00:29:08] to have

[00:29:08] surfeit

[00:29:09] candidates

[00:29:09] will

[00:29:10] sift

[00:29:11] on the

[00:29:11] basis

[00:29:11] qualifications

[00:29:13] then

[00:29:13] they

[00:29:13] will

[00:29:13] interview

[00:29:14] order

[00:29:14] find

[00:29:15] rest

[00:29:17] fact

[00:29:17] that

[00:29:17] they

[00:29:18] interviews

[00:29:19] evidence

[00:29:19] that

[00:29:20] they

[00:29:21] agree

[00:29:21] it's

[00:29:22] proxy

[00:29:23] what

[00:29:23] they

[00:29:24] need

[00:29:24] able

[00:29:25] talk

[00:29:26] have

[00:29:26] viver

[00:29:28] able

[00:29:48] anything

[00:29:48] else

[00:29:49] could

[00:29:49] just

[00:29:50] know

[00:29:50] little

[00:29:50] more

[00:29:51] about

[00:29:51] that

[00:29:51] well

[00:29:52] look

[00:29:52] it's

[00:29:53] semi

[00:29:53] regulatory

[00:29:54] function

[00:29:54] course

[00:29:55] requires

[00:29:56] Pearson

[00:29:57] that

[00:29:58] they

[00:29:58] have

[00:29:59] this

[00:29:59] group

[00:30:00] chaired

[00:30:01] Mary

[00:30:01] Curnock

[00:30:01] Cook

[00:30:03] just

[00:30:04] oversee

[00:30:05] regulatory

[00:30:08] compliance

[00:30:08] and the

[00:30:10] quality

[00:30:10] control

[00:30:10] around

[00:30:23] enjoy

[00:30:23] it's

[00:30:23] a chance

[00:30:24] peer

[00:30:25] inside

[00:30:25] black

[00:30:26] these

[00:30:26] things

[00:30:27] done

[00:30:27] it's

[00:30:28] extraordinary

[00:30:29] to go

[00:30:30] Rotherham

[00:30:31] and see

[00:30:32] massive

[00:30:33] warehouse

[00:30:34] where

[00:30:35] they're

[00:30:37] scanned

[00:30:37] and then

[00:30:39] sent out

[00:30:40] electronically

[00:30:41] examiners

[00:30:43] understand

[00:30:44] whole

[00:30:44] process

[00:30:45] interesting

[00:30:47] know

[00:30:48] Pearson

[00:30:48] as an

[00:30:49] example

[00:30:50] waiting

[00:30:51] to hear

[00:30:51] from

[00:30:51] Ofqual

[00:30:52] about

[00:30:53] whether

[00:30:53] or not

[00:30:54] to be

[00:30:54] able

[00:30:54] offer

[00:30:56] option

[00:30:56] screen

[00:30:57] English

[00:30:57] GCSE

[00:30:58] next

[00:30:59] summer

[00:31:00] which

[00:31:01] they've

[00:31:01] been

[00:31:01] doing

[00:31:02] iGCSE

[00:31:03] some

[00:31:03] time

[00:31:03] with

[00:31:03] some

[00:31:04] success

[00:31:06] that's

[00:31:07] beginnings

[00:31:08] where

[00:31:18] handwriting

[00:31:19] recognition

[00:31:20] Apple

[00:31:20] pencil

[00:31:21] iPad

[00:31:22] really

[00:31:23] strong

[00:31:26] wouldn't

[00:31:26] need

[00:31:27] have

[00:31:27] that

[00:31:27] warehouse

[00:31:28] Rotherham

[00:31:28] you could

[00:31:29] do it

[00:31:30] writing

[00:31:31] tablet

[00:31:31] yeah

[00:31:32] absolutely

[00:31:34] it's

[00:31:34] one of

[00:31:35] those

[00:31:35] things

[00:31:36] isn't

[00:31:36] where

[00:31:39] efficiencies

[00:31:40] innovation

[00:31:40] that you

[00:31:40] could

[00:31:41] seem

[00:31:41] quite

[00:31:42] obvious

[00:31:43] implementation

[00:31:43] of it

[00:31:44] quite

[00:31:45] difficult

[00:31:45] isn't

[00:32:00] when

[00:32:00] it's

[00:32:00] very

[00:32:01] what

[00:32:02] comes

[00:32:02] time

[00:32:02] time

[00:32:03] again

[00:32:04] this

[00:32:04] podcast

[00:32:04] around

[00:32:05] high

[00:32:05] stakes

[00:32:06] nature

[00:32:06] it's

[00:32:06] just

[00:32:07] important

[00:32:08] knee

[00:32:09] jerk

[00:32:10] whole

[00:32:10] scale

[00:32:10] well

[00:32:11] just

[00:32:34] support

[00:32:34] remember

[00:32:35] that

[00:32:35] access

[00:32:37] major

[00:32:37] podcast

[00:32:37] platforms

[00:32:38] give

[00:32:39] rating

[00:32:39] give

[00:32:40] follow

[00:32:42] will

[00:32:42] catch

[00:32:42] next

[00:32:42] time

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