Multi-Tasking, Marina & Moving On

[00:00:00] I always tell the kids that it's kind of like taking a flight on like on your captain.

[00:00:29] The legislators are like the flight attendants and my job is to like see it you as comfortably

[00:00:39] as possible through this flight by the exam.

[00:00:44] Masks you do the safety instructions of the front because I can totally see you doing that.

[00:01:04] Hello and welcome to the exam man podcast I'm John Gaston your host and I'm here with my co-host Sophie Gaston.

[00:01:13] Hello.

[00:01:14] Sophie, are you sunny a little bit croakier there?

[00:01:16] Yeah apologies if I'm going to have any croakiness or coffin for me this evening and basically solidarity with anyone else who's got the school holiday lurky like me.

[00:01:27] We have had a great response to our first full length episode lots of emails, lots of comments which we really pleased about.

[00:01:36] But my favourite came from Simon Robinson who's the exams officer at Monkton, Coombs School and Bath who just said I've been walking around with my chest puffed out having been reminded how important my job is which is fantastic this is exactly what we were looking for, what we were aiming for when we started doing this podcast.

[00:01:55] So we're chuffed about that Simon and I hope that it's had the same effect on lots of you out there as well.

[00:02:10] So John what's the update I know after Easter weekend isn't it?

[00:02:14] We really start to think about exam season very much being upon us.

[00:02:19] Yeah it is definitely getting a lot more worryingly close.

[00:02:24] Yeah so the end of term obviously there was a lot to do and the big job I had to do sort of towards the end was sorting out my invigilators.

[00:02:34] So allocating them to all their the slots that they're going to work over April, May, June and July.

[00:02:43] So that's quite a big job and it needs to be done really carefully as well.

[00:02:49] But I'm going to talk a bit about that I think in a future episode when we talk about invigilators more generally.

[00:02:55] Get some of your invigilators off yeah.

[00:02:57] Yeah that's the goal definitely.

[00:02:59] But actually I spent a lot of my last week of term not really doing stuff to do with exams because I have another role within the school as well.

[00:03:11] Very sexy role. I'm the school's data manager which I know you're very sorry about.

[00:03:19] So I spent my last week of term really crunching data getting reports to senior management and reports sent home for parents and students looking at how all our students are getting on.

[00:03:34] So it's kind of strange that you know like is that we're in a crunch period of the year for planning for exams but I basically spent a week.

[00:03:41] Is that common as well?

[00:03:42] Yeah I think it is true talking to people very exam-scree.

[00:03:47] It is quite common anecdotally I knew that it'd be quite common and actually I was looking at the National Association of Exams Officers have a report that they do every year.

[00:03:56] And actually it does say on that from their survey more than half of exams officers have at least one other job.

[00:04:05] And I also actually was talking to some other exams officers about this and one of them told me that he as well has been the exams officer at his school.

[00:04:16] He was also the vaccine lead, the first aid lead, the EHCP lead, admissions admin lead and he also gets asked to get involved in timetable from time to time as well.

[00:04:27] Which is a major job in his time.

[00:04:30] It's a matter of time to take job as well.

[00:04:32] It's the worst job as well of all the jobs.

[00:04:34] So it is definitely common for exams officers to be asked to do other things within the school.

[00:04:42] Do you think that's because you're good multitaskers?

[00:04:45] Yeah, I think it probably does have something to do with that.

[00:04:48] I think it has a bit to do with the way in which schools have needed to save money as well.

[00:04:56] So that obviously is difficult and it's a challenge for exams officers as well.

[00:05:01] I think you know, is one thing that exams officers have kind of formally cited is the fact that they are having to take on lots of additional work.

[00:05:11] But I think you're right, it's often that exams officers do as we've said before.

[00:05:16] They've got a very kind of multifaceted job which means that they'll be good at multitasking and doing lots of different things.

[00:05:23] Prioritising. Absolutely.

[00:05:32] So our first guest who you're going to hear from in a moment is one of those exams officers who has done multiple roles at his school.

[00:05:40] Over a couple of decades and currently manages her various roles at the school with being the exams officer.

[00:05:50] John, have you ever thought about moving schools? I know you're really, really happy where you are and you've been there a long time as well.

[00:05:58] But is there ever a question about thinking about doing the same role in a different school?

[00:06:02] Not really no. I mean I've always been very happy as you know working there.

[00:06:09] I think one of the things for me is I've always felt that it takes time to kind of like being an exams officer is a lot about the relationships he build.

[00:06:19] And across the school as well.

[00:06:22] Exactly, so you've got to be able to work effectively with the site team, with the office admin team, with head to department, with senior leadership, all sorts of people across the school.

[00:06:34] The SCN team as well. Just starting from scratch.

[00:06:38] Starting from scratch has always felt to me like a big kind of undertaking.

[00:06:43] And so yeah, I had sort of always felt that I would get better as an exams officer if I stayed in the same place.

[00:06:54] And I think from my point of view that has worked out like that, I think that has been true.

[00:07:00] Is that something that happens across the board? Exams officers tend to stay in the same school?

[00:07:05] Well, funny you should ask that, Syfield because we've been talking about this excellent Facebook group for exams officers.

[00:07:12] And so in the last couple of days I posted a poll on there to try and find out a bit more about this.

[00:07:18] So I asked people the question of how many schools they worked in, just one or two or three or more.

[00:07:27] And we got like a really good response to it about 400 exams officers responded to this.

[00:07:35] And yeah, the results were interesting. There were about 70% of exams officers who said that they had stayed in one school and had moved on.

[00:07:45] If you think about the difference with teaching staff, how many?

[00:07:49] Yes, because there's a big problem with retention of teachers isn't there.

[00:07:53] I did realise though afterwards that the poll probably, you know, with my sexy data managers hat on, probably wasn't that scientific

[00:08:02] because obviously you would capture within that 70% a lot of people who were liking their first or second year.

[00:08:08] So you don't know whether they might move on to other schools.

[00:08:12] So it's not completely scientific, but I think it did show like a bit of a pattern that there was probably more of a tendency.

[00:08:19] And I'm kind of, I was kind of guessing that people would sort of be coming at it.

[00:08:23] Those people who had stayed in the same school would be coming at it from the same kind of point of view to me.

[00:08:29] And actually a couple of people replied to me so Bethany Bowen she said, I don't know if I would do exams at another school.

[00:08:38] It means learning in other schools ways, all the invigilators again etc etc which was kind of my sort perspective.

[00:08:45] But then there were a few people who kind of disagreed with that.

[00:08:50] And there was about sort of 25% who had worked in two schools and then like 5% worked in more than that.

[00:08:58] And so Sasha's is Anna and Anna had all come back and said that the reason that they moved almost was because they'd accumulated all this knowledge and they wanted to implement it from scratch.

[00:09:11] Oh yeah, that's yeah.

[00:09:12] So to go in basically and create a clean slate with all the knowledge that they've gained.

[00:09:17] I can see that it must be nice when you've learnt how to do something so well in one place wanting to go and...

[00:09:24] And then often you will pick up maybe pick up a bit of baggage in a job that it's kind of hard to get rid of.

[00:09:32] And that maybe moving jobs gives you the opportunity to do things.

[00:09:35] Yeah, in terms of doing things so much so.

[00:09:37] And obviously people work in different environments like some people don't have very... some people don't have very supportive management and at that point you know you often have no choice but to move on.

[00:09:48] So there's lots of reasons why people might choose to do that.

[00:09:53] But there's something else that this survey has done for me which is to give me an opportunity to introduce a football analogy.

[00:10:06] I'm not a football fan.

[00:10:09] As I promised I would in every single episode.

[00:10:13] So my takeaway was from the survey was that most exams officers are sort of steven Gerard kind of figures.

[00:10:21] It means nothing to me.

[00:10:23] Absolutely.

[00:10:24] Well steven Gerard may be like a pool skulls, Ryan gigs...

[00:10:29] No they're quite good.

[00:10:31] Nearly.

[00:10:33] So they're all one club men.

[00:10:35] Okay.

[00:10:36] So they're all players who have stayed at the same club.

[00:10:38] Don't know which club.

[00:10:39] And there aren't too many.

[00:10:42] What there aren't too many are out there are Lee Hendries amongst the exams officer community.

[00:10:50] And if you're not sure about who Lee Hendries then just go and Google him and see how many clubs he played for.

[00:10:57] Because it's a lot and I doubt any exams officer has worked in many schools.

[00:11:01] Don't they move so...

[00:11:02] I mean again I don't know much about football but don't they move to get more money though?

[00:11:07] They do.

[00:11:08] And I guess it's not that incentive with exams officers.

[00:11:11] Well it might be a post.

[00:11:12] I doubt is this...

[00:11:13] A hundred can you will be the sort of hobby that I would be.

[00:11:16] Footballers are looking at but I guess in some places you might...

[00:11:19] You know people might move improved conditions or what have you.

[00:11:24] But yeah it seems to be much rarer for exams officers to move around a lot then for them to stay in one place.

[00:11:34] And actually we're going to talk to you as mentioned earlier our first guest which is really exciting.

[00:11:41] And this is someone who has been at her school for a very long time which we'll talk about doing multiple roles and most recently as exams officer.

[00:11:51] So quite exotically we caught up with Marina and Tanu in Cyprus.

[00:11:57] Now unfortunately she was in Cyprus and not us.

[00:12:01] We won't tell you about how long it took us to work out the technicalities between running, interviewing her in Cyprus and us in the UK.

[00:12:10] But anyway here we go.

[00:12:18] So we're really delighted to be here with Marina.

[00:12:20] Marina is going to be our first ever guest on the exam and podcast which is...

[00:12:26] How do you feel about that Marina?

[00:12:28] Arnold.

[00:12:29] That's an Arnold one.

[00:12:34] That was nice, thank you.

[00:12:36] No no that's no problem. We should disclose at this point that we do know Marina and have known her for some time.

[00:12:45] Decades.

[00:12:46] Decades.

[00:12:47] How long is it so that we've done Marina?

[00:12:50] 21.

[00:12:51] 21 years.

[00:12:52] 21 years.

[00:12:53] But it makes us sound really old.

[00:12:57] We are really old.

[00:13:00] So Marina, how do you know...

[00:13:03] Well you met Sophie first and you before you met me.

[00:13:06] But how did you meet Sophie? Can you explain?

[00:13:08] Yes, met Sophie when we were baby teachers.

[00:13:12] As I said over 20 years ago and I was a lowly NQT and Sophie was training to be a teacher as well and we bonded.

[00:13:26] We did.

[00:13:27] So what's the school that you work at Marina?

[00:13:31] I've been at the same school this whole time.

[00:13:35] The secondary schooling camp will called Sacred Heart.

[00:13:38] Max could you also tell us a little bit about the context of the school.

[00:13:43] What sort of area is the schooling and what sort of backgrounds do a lot of the people come from?

[00:13:49] It's an interlunding school.

[00:13:52] The students are mostly from Canterwell and Brixton and Peckham.

[00:13:59] For those people who are familiar with South London we have a higher than average free school meals.

[00:14:07] Much higher than average English is an additional language.

[00:14:11] The school is not selective.

[00:14:15] And it's Catholic.

[00:14:17] That's the only way we do select based on Catholicity and distance.

[00:14:21] What is it about Sacred Heart that's meant that you've wanted to stay there for over 20 years?

[00:14:27] It's just a really good place to work at.

[00:14:31] The ethos of the school is one which I agree with and I follow.

[00:14:38] The kids are great.

[00:14:40] I think that's probably the number one thing actually.

[00:14:43] The kids are, you know, just great.

[00:14:47] It's a really good place to work at.

[00:14:50] I feel looked after.

[00:14:53] I kind of ended up there by accident as it was my second placement when I was training as a teacher and I've just stayed there forever.

[00:15:00] So you have obviously, as Sauf said, you taught there for a long time but you've sort of had other roles as well.

[00:15:09] Gosh.

[00:15:10] I haven't you within the school. Can you tell us a bit about what you've actually done?

[00:15:15] I started off as a, we're still a science teacher.

[00:15:19] And over the years, I've been second in charge of science.

[00:15:23] I've been head of citizenship.

[00:15:25] I've been head of vocational subjects.

[00:15:28] I've been involved in sixth form either as head of year or as direct or a sixth form, deputy director.

[00:15:35] And then I reached the heady heights of exams.

[00:15:40] You really made it then.

[00:15:43] So that's a slightly interesting journey because one of the things we've been talking about on this podcast is about the fact that a lot of exams officers have other roles so they don't necessarily just do that job.

[00:15:57] But those are the roles tend to be other support functions within the school, so they might be the data manager or they might deal with admissions or something like that.

[00:16:07] But yours is kind of almost a bit more sort of old school really in that you're sort of a member now the leadership team within the school.

[00:16:15] Yeah.

[00:16:16] And you've taken on a role from there.

[00:16:18] It's always been a senior management role at Secret High.

[00:16:22] Yeah, that's interesting because I think if you went back about sort of 25 years then I think pretty much most of the people who ran exams would have been senior leaders.

[00:16:32] And then something changed. I think probably run exams got more complex and some of the bigger schools felt that they needed someone who just to do that.

[00:16:42] And I think that's when it changed, but some schools have retained what you do I think which is to be a senior leader and to run exams as well.

[00:16:51] Is it difficult to balance your different responsibilities?

[00:16:57] It's really difficult. I think your right, Sacred Heart is quite traditional.

[00:17:02] And whilst we look forward and outwards constantly for ways to improve, we know that having the exams officer role as being somebody in senior management has always worked because it's a role that's taken really seriously and the kids automatically take it really seriously too.

[00:17:23] So we kind of don't really want to deviate from that. But it's also as you vary, well no, it's a massive undertaking in terms of admin.

[00:17:34] And I have a teaching time table.

[00:17:36] Of course, yeah.

[00:17:37] I'm still teaching, I'm still doing other responsibilities pertaining to senior management so it's full on.

[00:17:47] What are the things that have surprised you about the exams role, maybe things that you didn't know before? Are you surprised by how much work is involved in it first of all?

[00:17:57] I shadowed the previous exams officer for the last couple of years before he went.

[00:18:04] Yeah.

[00:18:05] So I was aware of how much was involved in some sense but those two years I shadowed him were also the COVID years.

[00:18:16] So, in my interest, so it was a bit of a baptism by fire.

[00:18:26] I think it's more than the technical stuff.

[00:18:30] I used to ask you, you know, in the first couple years for advice a lot John, when you were really helpful, things to do with the Sims.

[00:18:38] Yeah right.

[00:18:39] You know, like the tiniest thing on Sims, I just, I wouldn't, like the season is locked and I wouldn't know how to fix it.

[00:18:46] It would take me hours.

[00:18:47] Yeah.

[00:18:48] You know, stuff like that surprised me.

[00:18:52] Yeah, I mean it's quite a varied job isn't it?

[00:18:54] You've got to have sort of like technical knowledge but then you've got also be able to like organize people and things like that.

[00:19:01] What do you guys do for your, what's your in-visualation team look like?

[00:19:05] We have a lovely team of invigilators.

[00:19:10] They're not teaching staff so they're support staff and obviously they come in for exams but I want to point out that we use the invigilators for all of the exams at Sacred Heart.

[00:19:22] So it's not just public exams, we do exams twice a year properly and you know in the hall for all year groups starting for all year groups.

[00:19:34] Wow okay.

[00:19:35] You're seven onwards and actually it's always been like that because I always thought that all schools did that many exams because that's the first school that I worked in.

[00:19:47] I know!

[00:19:48] And then they went and swearing thought, oh so I think we've got probably an even harder job because you're constantly doing exams.

[00:19:56] We are, I worked out that it's 50% of the time there's exams going on.

[00:20:01] Wow wow wow.

[00:20:03] So that's interesting because one of my questions actually to you about the school generally was going to be I think you are a very high performing school aren't you?

[00:20:13] In terms of the results, the exam results that you get as a school.

[00:20:17] So I think you are often in the top 10 schools in England for progress A.

[00:20:24] So just taking a side for a second the question of you know like there will be debating from time to time on here about exams and whether they're a good thing and things like that.

[00:20:34] What do you think it is about the school and the way the school is run and the things that what are the things that you do that mean your students get such good exam results?

[00:20:45] Apart from Marina's teacher.

[00:20:47] Apart from you obviously in your...

[00:20:49] Yeah I mean obviously I'm everything to this special place isn't it?

[00:20:54] It is a special place.

[00:20:56] It is a special place and people who visited say that it's a special place and I think sometimes maybe in the past more so people would visit Sacred Heart and think it would be some kind of exams effectory but then we actually visit and we speak to the kids and we speak to us where much...

[00:21:14] We're not that.

[00:21:16] Everybody is really hard working staff and students we've always had a culture of no excuses, always work your hardest and be a good person are values you know are far more important than just exams.

[00:21:34] And I think in terms of what our good performance at Progress 8 and my role because the kids are so used to doing their exams twice a year in the hall they always have me at the front starting them off and they see the same faces, the same with the gelatoes, it's always the same routine.

[00:21:57] It kind of makes it a little bit easier, it's not that much.

[00:22:01] It should be a big deal by the time they get to, you're trying to get your love and then they start doing public exams?

[00:22:05] Yeah yeah yeah because I think there's a tendency sometimes in schools to think we need to take the pressure off the students because exams are stressful things sometimes is like let's take the pressure off the student so we won't make them do too many assessments and exams and stuff lower down the school.

[00:22:23] But then the problem you get then is that they come in and they don't have the experience and it's overwhelming then at that point isn't it because they haven't learned how it feels to do that kind of thing.

[00:22:36] And they can deal with it I suppose.

[00:22:38] We can deal with it, we want them to be resilient.

[00:22:41] That is one of our core values we always talk about, we want them to be resilient and we want them to be able to deal with the stress.

[00:22:50] And not be freaking out over an exam I'm not going to tell you that exams aren't stressful at the same time.

[00:22:59] Of course they are, exams are stressful and they're supposed to be stressful but we do our very best to make it kind of normal for them to be just possible

[00:23:09] and make them use to it.

[00:23:12] You can't moldy coddle them, we're going to have to do exam soon or later on.

[00:23:15] Exactly, in a system where you're going to have to do that it just makes sense doesn't it to prepare the students kind of well for it.

[00:23:23] You do see, I mean one of the things I know it's definitely is that you do see students grow through year 11 as they do their marks and then they go through the real thing.

[00:23:34] And I think there is a sense of accomplishment in having confronted that process and got through it and dealt with it.

[00:23:44] You know, often you do actually see the self-esteem of students grow as well when they go through that process which is good.

[00:23:53] What do you most enjoy about the exams role and what do you least enjoy about it?

[00:24:03] Well before I became exams officer, I always used to joke around with the previous exams officer before he retired and I used to say to him I want to grow up and be like you.

[00:24:14] It must be satisfying.

[00:24:16] It must be so satisfying, I used to naively say.

[00:24:21] Watching, doing the whole...

[00:24:25] Actually it is satisfying.

[00:24:27] Yeah, yeah. What's satisfying about... what do you find satisfying? What is it that's satisfying?

[00:24:32] My thoughts are all processed.

[00:24:34] I feel like there's a cycle and everything on my mind I sound really sad.

[00:24:39] That's exactly what I said to Sophie when she asked me in our first episode she was like why did she like...

[00:24:47] I'm trying to say by the way.

[00:24:50] I should hope so.

[00:24:52] But that was what my first answer, I think it's like this weird satisfaction, I can't really explain it but it is a sense of almost like achievement that you get regularly.

[00:25:04] Yeah and like...

[00:25:06] There's like every night with creature of habit I really like the routine.

[00:25:10] I like knowing that we're gonna do the exams now and I'm gonna tick everything off my list.

[00:25:15] I don't feel like I'm going to pack everything up neatly.

[00:25:19] You know there's a problem with things that I hate as well.

[00:25:22] But there is a certain... you know what I mean.

[00:25:25] Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:26] A certain satisfaction isn't there.

[00:25:28] And also like...

[00:25:30] I always tell the kids...

[00:25:33] That's the same thing.

[00:25:35] That is kind of like taking a flight on like I'm your captain.

[00:25:39] Yeah.

[00:25:40] I mean the insidulators are like the flight attendants.

[00:25:44] And my job is to like steer you as comfortably as possible through this flight.

[00:25:52] I think exam... they don't look at me like I'm crazy.

[00:25:56] But you know what I mean?

[00:25:58] Do you take the safe-term instructions at the front?

[00:26:01] Because I can tightly see you doing that.

[00:26:10] I think the other worst part about the job, other than the admin, is that terror I spoke about.

[00:26:16] You know you wake up at like one o'clock in the morning or at least I do.

[00:26:20] Yeah.

[00:26:21] Oh my god did I do those entries?

[00:26:24] Did I do that?

[00:26:25] I can like work yourself up.

[00:26:27] You've done something that you haven't done something rather and you've forgotten about it.

[00:26:31] Yeah.

[00:26:32] And that it's going to come back and bite you in the bum.

[00:26:34] Yeah.

[00:26:35] And like...

[00:26:36] Oh, it's horrible.

[00:26:37] Do you wake up more worrying about exams than you do worrying about teaching?

[00:26:41] Oh god yeah.

[00:26:42] Yeah.

[00:26:43] Do you think that's just because you're a more experienced teacher than...

[00:26:47] Or do you think it's something to do with the nature of the...

[00:26:49] It's to do with the money if I'm on it.

[00:26:51] I'm always worrying that I've forgotten to do something and it'll be a very costly mistake.

[00:26:56] Right.

[00:26:57] And I've convinced myself many times that I've made a big huge mistake.

[00:27:01] Yeah.

[00:27:02] And then by the time I need to get to school and check, then I haven't made any mistake.

[00:27:06] But in the meantime, I'm imagining all sorts of scenarios telling my head teacher to take it out of my salary.

[00:27:13] Yeah.

[00:27:14] I've had exactly that same feeling as well.

[00:27:17] It's a horrible feeling.

[00:27:19] Your heart, quickens, you start sweating.

[00:27:22] And it's like, I just need to check everything.

[00:27:25] Yeah, I can definitely...

[00:27:27] I'll simplify this with that.

[00:27:28] Yeah.

[00:27:29] One thing I haven't mentioned in maths is just how happy it makes me that you're now working in exams.

[00:27:43] Because when I first met you which would have been good 20 years ago...

[00:27:49] When I was only five.

[00:27:51] When you were a fledgling.

[00:27:55] You and Sophie and another one of your colleagues, Susie,

[00:28:01] you're like a little team weren't you?

[00:28:04] The sort of three musketeers or Charlie's Angels, something like that.

[00:28:10] That's what I was about.

[00:28:13] But one of the things was that whenever I hung out with a three of you,

[00:28:17] you just talked about teaching all the time.

[00:28:21] And it was like...

[00:28:22] You were passionate about it into it.

[00:28:24] That's great.

[00:28:25] You're happy for you.

[00:28:26] But for me, it could at times feel a little excluding.

[00:28:30] So what's wonderful for me since you've started working in exams is now...

[00:28:35] Whenever we meet up, like me and you can talk about exams completely to the exclusion

[00:28:41] of soap, which just made it just...

[00:28:44] I feel like I've got my revenge.

[00:28:46] It's just fantastic.

[00:28:48] I love talking about exams.

[00:28:50] It's so nice to have somebody who actually understands.

[00:28:53] I'll go home and I'll be like, oh, you know, Vince, my husband.

[00:28:58] You know, it's exam stuff.

[00:29:00] And he just sits there rolling his eyes.

[00:29:02] But Johnny, you get me.

[00:29:04] Yeah.

[00:29:05] We're a weird little community of people who sort of are kind of quite into something

[00:29:10] that just nobody else...

[00:29:12] Really?

[00:29:13] Can we really understand why we're so into it?

[00:29:16] You're so wise, John.

[00:29:18] In my first year of doing this, I was so excited when you came up for the day to train me.

[00:29:24] Yeah, yeah, I love that.

[00:29:26] That was so exciting.

[00:29:27] That was a good day and I was walking around school and I was like,

[00:29:30] guys, this is John, so husband.

[00:29:34] I have to say that you're...

[00:29:37] I was really struck by your students that day.

[00:29:40] Like, they were so polite.

[00:29:42] Like a night in a weird way.

[00:29:45] Like, just like they just say hello to you when you walk past the things like that

[00:29:50] and they're very nice, normal, natural way.

[00:29:53] Yeah, I was really impressed with this call.

[00:29:56] But my favourite bit of the day, man, was that you bought me gregs.

[00:30:03] For London.

[00:30:04] Oh, I was going to say I was about to say, was it when we had gregs from London?

[00:30:07] Two statebakes.

[00:30:09] It was awesome.

[00:30:10] So thank you.

[00:30:11] Well, I'm really pleased you said that about this kids at school because they are really wonderful kids

[00:30:18] and we're not an exams factory.

[00:30:22] We do really well with the kids but we want them to be good people.

[00:30:28] We're always saying hello is one of the things we always talk to them about.

[00:30:37] Yeah.

[00:30:38] Yeah, that's lovely.

[00:30:39] Yeah.

[00:30:40] That's lovely.

[00:30:41] Yeah, I hope so.

[00:30:42] I love it.

[00:30:43] Well, it's great to talk to you, Maaz, have a good rest of your holiday.

[00:30:49] You're in sight, Prasad, aren't you at the moment?

[00:30:51] It's going to be difficult though because this is sort of the highlight of your holiday.

[00:30:54] I don't know if it's sort of pink now.

[00:30:57] I have been, I have picked and I may have been telling people that I'm going to be on a very important podcast.

[00:31:04] Yeah, yeah.

[00:31:05] That's why you can't go to the beach in the 30 degree heat.

[00:31:09] Yeah, no thank you very much for chatting to us.

[00:31:12] Very welcome.

[00:31:13] Thank you for having me.

[00:31:14] Enjoy your holiday and good luck with the exams when they come as well, Maaz.

[00:31:16] Oh my god, I'm so happy reading for you.

[00:31:18] I'm so happy.

[00:31:19] I hope it all goes well.

[00:31:20] Yeah, thank you.

[00:31:21] Thank you.

[00:31:22] See you soon.

[00:31:23] See you soon.

[00:31:24] Bye.

[00:31:25] Well, that was fun.

[00:31:32] Was it safe?

[00:31:33] Oh yeah.

[00:31:34] And a total nostalgia trip for me.

[00:31:36] Yeah, here in Maaz talk about school and extremely fond of.

[00:31:40] Yeah, it was lovely.

[00:31:42] What do you think?

[00:31:43] Yeah, I thought it was really interesting conversation.

[00:31:47] A couple of things like really stood out to me, I think, from what she was saying.

[00:31:53] Sort of in relation to what we've been talking about earlier in the podcast.

[00:31:57] So obviously she's split quite a lot of ways in terms of what she has to do.

[00:32:02] But having said that, I thought what was really interesting is that the school is adamant

[00:32:07] that the role that she does has a level of significance and status within the school.

[00:32:12] And always has had.

[00:32:13] And always has had, which means that she, you know, the role is given to her member

[00:32:18] of their senior leadership team, which I think is quite interesting.

[00:32:21] And that was always, that always used to be the sort of model.

[00:32:25] And I know that one of the things that a lot of exams officers feel is that there's

[00:32:30] there's a lack of understanding amongst leadership now around what their role involves

[00:32:35] and how complex it can be.

[00:32:37] And I think what's obviously good about Marina's school is that that isn't a problem

[00:32:43] because Marina is there to tell them all.

[00:32:46] And I'm sure she does.

[00:32:47] Yeah.

[00:32:48] Just, you know, what the role involves at how important it is.

[00:32:51] We've had a few people email us, of course, who've said that they're going to basically

[00:32:56] send this podcast link to view their SLT so they can know a little bit more about

[00:33:01] what they do, you know, and this interesting.

[00:33:03] Yeah, yeah.

[00:33:04] And I hope that, you know, that there would be engagement, you know, from senior leaders

[00:33:09] as much as possible.

[00:33:11] I mean, I don't personally think that it necessarily has to be.

[00:33:15] You necessarily have to be on senior leadership to do the role.

[00:33:18] But I think that involvement, you know, from leadership and that deep interest

[00:33:22] from leadership and understanding is important.

[00:33:25] And the other thing that sort of stood out to me was the fact that she talked quite

[00:33:31] a lot about how much they prepare their students to sit exams.

[00:33:36] Yeah.

[00:33:37] And at the same time, she was absolutely adamant and at pains to say that they are not an exam factory.

[00:33:44] And I think sometimes schools that perform very well in exams like...

[00:33:48] I do a lot of exams.

[00:33:49] Yeah, like Sacred Heart.

[00:33:51] They sometimes do get given slightly lazily, I think, labelled as sort of as exams factory.

[00:33:58] But I think the point she was trying to make was that firstly, the performance of the students

[00:34:03] in exams is largely a byproduct of all the good things that they do about the school.

[00:34:09] But also that it would kind of be naive to not prepare your students well for exams,

[00:34:15] not just from the school's point of view, but from the student's point of view as well.

[00:34:19] Because ultimately they're going to have to do this thing.

[00:34:22] So to not prepare them is almost kind of negligent really, you know,

[00:34:27] to not give them that experience, to not help them to understand the environment that they're doing it in

[00:34:34] and the kind of experience that they're going to get when they sit their exams.

[00:34:38] It wouldn't be responsible to not give them that experience.

[00:34:42] So...

[00:34:43] Well there's an interesting take on it, isn't it?

[00:34:45] Definitely, definitely.

[00:34:46] And I'm sure we'll hear different kinds of opinions about that.

[00:34:49] Oh definitely.

[00:34:50] As we move through all these episodes.

[00:34:58] Thanks everyone for tuning in.

[00:34:59] Remember that you can catch the exam man on all the major podcasting outlets.

[00:35:04] Please give us a review and a follow, and we'll see you next time.

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