SATs: exams in primary schools

[00:00:22] It doesn't really work then because the kid looks around the room and goes, well if it's not so serious, why is everything off the wall and why are you speaking all seriously and all that, so it's really difficult.

[00:00:36] I've never had to put my SAT results on a job application before, so there's sometimes some myths that parents come to us with really about them.

[00:01:04] This week we had an absolutely wonderful interview with Dan Walton-Smith who is a Deputy Head Teacher at Prenton Primary School, which is a two-form entry primary school on the Wirral.

[00:01:15] And we talked to him all about SATs and about other assessments that take place in primary school.

[00:01:21] We were really interested to do this because we wanted to do a whole kind of compare and contrast with secondary school,

[00:01:26] and what we found out was actually some remarkable similarities between what we're expected to do around exams in secondary school and what they do in primary school as well around SATs.

[00:01:38] We also discussed SATs a bit more broadly as well because obviously there can be a bit of a controversial subject.

[00:01:44] So it was really interesting to get Dan's take on the purposes behind SATs, how pupils and parents react to it,

[00:01:51] and also to find out some of his thoughts about whether or not they're a good thing, how they might be improved,

[00:01:58] and some issues around school accountability and pupil progress.

[00:02:03] It was a really, really interesting chat, so I hope you enjoy.

[00:02:14] Dan, could you explain to us what the statutory assessments are that you have to do in primary school?

[00:02:21] Yeah, so they start pretty much straight away.

[00:02:24] So kind of a fairly new one, if you like, is something called the Reception Baseline.

[00:02:32] So that's only been going for a couple of years now, and that's an assessment which is completed over the first six weeks

[00:02:40] when the children start right down in reception.

[00:02:43] Right.

[00:02:44] And it's like a one-to-one assessment that they'll do with the teacher,

[00:02:49] and it's kind of a number of literacy and a number of maths-based tasks.

[00:02:54] Mm-hmm.

[00:02:54] And depending on how the child does, the teacher will input what they can and can't do on like an online portal.

[00:03:01] Right.

[00:03:02] The children don't get a score or anything like that as such.

[00:03:05] All we receive is basically a PDF document for each child with a list of statements of what they can do, basically.

[00:03:13] So that's all we get.

[00:03:15] But obviously the DFE collects all that data from the online portal,

[00:03:18] and that baseline in the future is going to be used to measure progress in primary schools.

[00:03:25] So they'll use that data to then how a child does at the end of year six

[00:03:29] and look at what progress they've made during primary school.

[00:03:32] So that's the first assessment.

[00:03:34] Okay.

[00:03:36] And then there's a second one in reception.

[00:03:38] So even before they've started the national curriculum in year one,

[00:03:41] they've already been hit with two assessments.

[00:03:43] So they've got that reception baseline one, which they have to do within six weeks of starting school.

[00:03:48] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:49] And then at the end of the year, we have something called the Early Years Foundation Stage Profile,

[00:03:57] which isn't an assessment as such in terms of the kids don't kind of do a assessment.

[00:04:04] That's something where the teacher will assess the child against all of the early learning goals,

[00:04:10] which are in the early years curriculum.

[00:04:12] And basically, the teacher will decide based on kind of everything they see of that child on a day-to-day basis,

[00:04:19] decide whether that child has met or not met each of the 17 early learning goals.

[00:04:26] So they're the first two.

[00:04:27] So that's before we've even started, as I said, the national curriculum in year one.

[00:04:31] And just realising how much I haven't read letters.

[00:04:34] We've got a child in year two.

[00:04:36] Yeah, yeah.

[00:04:37] And I do, I mean, this is all ringing a vague bell, but I just...

[00:04:40] Yeah.

[00:04:41] I hadn't realised that they were statutory assessments though, that they were doing in reception.

[00:04:45] No, I didn't either.

[00:04:45] That's really interesting.

[00:04:46] How effective do you think those assessments are, Daniel?

[00:04:49] You know, with kids that young, are they effective at capturing things, do you think?

[00:04:54] Yeah, I mean, the reception baseline one, as I said, that's quite new.

[00:04:59] Yeah.

[00:05:00] It's been...

[00:05:01] I'm trying to think whether your child in year two would have done it.

[00:05:03] I think they will have done.

[00:05:04] That might have been...

[00:05:05] Yeah, I think they may well have even been the first year group,

[00:05:09] or maybe the second year group that did it.

[00:05:12] So it's still kind of in its infancy as kind of compared to some assessments.

[00:05:19] I can understand...

[00:05:20] I understand the premise behind it.

[00:05:22] Let's see where they are at the beginning, as soon as we've got them.

[00:05:26] And then let's see where they are when they do their SATs, which we'll talk about shortly,

[00:05:30] at the end of year six.

[00:05:31] And let's see, you know, how they've got on through their primary school journey.

[00:05:36] So I understand the concept and the premise of it.

[00:05:40] I think my only kind of personal, when I speak to other people, I guess concern about it is it has to be done within the first six weeks of reception.

[00:05:51] And for some children, it can take them longer than that before they've really settled.

[00:05:57] The school can be brand new for them.

[00:06:00] Obviously, you know, for some children, if they've gone to that school for a nursery setting,

[00:06:07] then they might settle a little bit quicker because they know the building and they're a bit more used to it.

[00:06:12] If they've gone to a private nursery or not even been to a nursery at all, yeah,

[00:06:18] and then they come in six weeks isn't that long a time.

[00:06:22] So are you really getting a true picture?

[00:06:25] I think some kids are still kind of in their shell a little bit and maybe not necessarily fully comfortable.

[00:06:33] And as I said, it's a one to one assessment whereby and the thing with one to one assessments,

[00:06:38] if you're not comfortable with the adult who's there and obviously you're hoping they are comfortable within six weeks

[00:06:45] and that relationship starting to form, but there's no guarantee.

[00:06:48] Is that usually their class teacher?

[00:06:53] Yeah, it doesn't have to be.

[00:06:55] Okay.

[00:06:56] Obviously, you know, it depends on the set up of the school really.

[00:07:00] Could be a class teacher.

[00:07:03] In some schools, they might have a member of SOT do it.

[00:07:07] I mean, as long as it's kind of the same person who's doing it.

[00:07:11] So in my school, we've got two classes in reception, two classes of 30.

[00:07:16] So one teacher will do her 30 children and the other teacher will do her 30 children.

[00:07:22] But as I said, I think the downside to it is have they really settled?

[00:07:26] Are you getting a real true kind of reflection?

[00:07:29] But I do understand the premise behind it and why they've got it.

[00:07:34] So that's the first one.

[00:07:36] So Dan, is this the equivalent then of progress eight effectively in secondary schools and that you're you've created the baseline when the students enter the school?

[00:07:46] And then with the exams at the end, the SATs in your case, you're then using that to measure their progress throughout the school.

[00:07:54] And then therefore you can form some sort of judgment on the school in terms of how it's helping students progress.

[00:08:00] Is that is that the basic thinking?

[00:08:03] Yeah, exactly that.

[00:08:04] And again, I understand that really if you want them to look at how much progress a child's made and how they've got on.

[00:08:12] It's a bit like if you were to run an intervention, you do a baseline at the beginning.

[00:08:16] Where are they at the start? Where are they at the end?

[00:08:18] Has it worked kind of thing?

[00:08:19] So I get it.

[00:08:21] But I think a bit like the progress eight, my sister's a secondary school teacher.

[00:08:27] And I know that a frustration of hers is that based on SATs results in year six, they're given these.

[00:08:36] And again, I mean, I'm not an expert on the progress eight, but obviously I'm led to believe that based on their SATs results,

[00:08:41] they're given a target for every subject in secondary.

[00:08:45] That's right.

[00:08:45] Now, how your year six, you know, maths test score equates to how well you should do in a design technology GCSE.

[00:08:59] I struggled.

[00:09:00] I struggled to see that link.

[00:09:01] Yeah.

[00:09:02] I think I think the truth with that is, Dan, is that it doesn't.

[00:09:05] But it's because it's because that's the measure.

[00:09:08] That's what what schools end up doing, because it's just like they're working towards the measure.

[00:09:14] Do you know what I mean?

[00:09:14] Rather than like what would make most logical sense.

[00:09:18] Exactly.

[00:09:19] Exactly.

[00:09:20] That's interesting.

[00:09:21] So could you tell us now a bit about SATs?

[00:09:25] Yeah.

[00:09:25] So obviously there's a bit of change here recently as well in the last couple of years.

[00:09:31] So historically, there's always been SATs at the end of Key Stage one.

[00:09:35] So end of year two and SATs again at the end of Key Stage two.

[00:09:41] So year six.

[00:09:43] As of the academic year just gone, the year two SATs are now optional.

[00:09:49] I say in inverted commas in terms of if a school decides they don't want to do them, that's fine.

[00:09:56] There's no kind of comeback on them.

[00:09:59] I'm yet to find a school that isn't doing them.

[00:10:02] Right.

[00:10:03] So, you know, how now whether that's because it was the first year and people were like, well, I'm a bit nervous still to take it out completely.

[00:10:14] I don't know.

[00:10:16] But any school that I've had any kind of contact or communication with did them last year.

[00:10:21] Yeah.

[00:10:25] So that's it.

[00:10:26] That's at the end of year two.

[00:10:27] And as I said, it's optional.

[00:10:29] But I think certainly for the foreseeable future, I see most schools continuing to do them.

[00:10:38] And then we've got the year six SATs, which they're compulsory.

[00:10:41] So the year two ones have always been slightly different and a bit more relaxed, if that's the right word, in terms of schools were given kind of a month to do them.

[00:10:53] So it was like you can do them any time in May.

[00:10:55] It's up to you.

[00:10:56] They're a little bit more laid back.

[00:10:58] Obviously, the children are younger.

[00:10:59] So it's, you know, you might do it in groups.

[00:11:01] You might this type of thing.

[00:11:03] It's a little bit more chill.

[00:11:04] Often the kids don't even probably realize, you know, the word SATs won't even probably be mentioned in most primary schools.

[00:11:10] It would just be, oh, we're just going to have a go at these questions.

[00:11:13] It's very kind of chill, laid back.

[00:11:15] Obviously, in year six, it's a lot more formal.

[00:11:18] There's set dates.

[00:11:19] Every school has to do the tests on the same date.

[00:11:23] The year two ones have always been marked internally.

[00:11:26] So they've never been sent off.

[00:11:28] Okay.

[00:11:29] So schools mark them.

[00:11:32] And what schools have always had the flexibility to do in year two is you can mark the paper and see what the child's score was.

[00:11:40] And the score obviously will give an indication as to whether they're working towards, working at expected, working at a greater depth.

[00:11:49] But in what they can do in year two, even now with the optional ones, is you can kind of go against the test.

[00:11:56] So for example, if you've got a child who you think on the test is maybe just bombed a little bit and made a couple of silly mistakes and maybe didn't quite reach the expected standard on the test.

[00:12:08] But you think you've got enough evidence in that child's book, you can like override it.

[00:12:14] Right, right, right.

[00:12:15] So the year two data and the key stage one data that's published has always been teacher assessed data.

[00:12:23] Right.

[00:12:23] But with the idea being that you obviously are meant to use the test score as a bit of an indicator, but there was always that flexibility that you could override it.

[00:12:32] The same way, you know, sometimes you get a kid who has maybe, you know, a couple of tick box questions and has maybe fluked the couple and you've thought, actually, I think that score is maybe slightly high.

[00:12:43] Right, right.

[00:12:44] You know, although again, because of the accountability involved, I think most schools would go, oh great, I wouldn't have put him down as expected, but they've passed the test.

[00:12:54] So I've got the evidence now to say they're expected when really did possibly be a debate that they weren't.

[00:13:02] But it often worked more the other way kids.

[00:13:05] So obviously the way the sats work, both in year two and year six, is they do the test, they get a raw score, however many marks they've got right.

[00:13:13] And then that raw score is turned into a scaled score between 80 and 120, with 100 being the expected standard.

[00:13:26] So what often happens is those kids who end up scoring around 98, 99, people are going, they didn't quite get expected on the test, but have I got enough evidence in the book to say, yeah, they're expected.

[00:13:42] So that's what often happens in year two, because as I said, it is still teacher assessed.

[00:13:54] It's very hard to describe the process of the year six sats because the level of information that headteachers and deputy headteachers have to take in,

[00:14:05] in terms of the rules to do with packaging up the test papers, sealing them, they have to get locked away.

[00:14:12] You wait for a courier to come.

[00:14:14] Very much talking to the right audience.

[00:14:17] Yeah, I imagine it's a similar thing at secondary, of course.

[00:14:22] So they're a lot more kind of serious and, you know, heaven forbid that a child's off and you're having to contact the STA and say,

[00:14:31] can they do their test tomorrow and all this kind of stuff.

[00:14:33] So a lot more serious, obviously, at year six level.

[00:14:37] And how do they, how do they sort of actually physically do them in a classroom or do they go into halls?

[00:14:45] How does, how does it logistically work?

[00:14:48] Usually.

[00:14:49] It's up to the school.

[00:14:50] Okay.

[00:14:51] It's up to the school.

[00:14:53] Some schools will put them in a hall and set it up a little bit more kind of like secondary when they go into like the sports halls and that type of thing.

[00:15:04] Other schools will do it in their classrooms.

[00:15:09] The difficulty with the classroom is there's all kinds of rules about things, obviously, all the displays have to be covered up or taken down.

[00:15:20] So I think most schools, again, that I speak of like to try and do it in the classroom because it feels you're trying to take a little bit of the pressure off.

[00:15:31] And because, you know, schools are always trying to make out to the kids, look, it's not that big a deal.

[00:15:35] It's just that, you know, you've done loads of tests.

[00:15:38] It's just another test.

[00:15:40] You know, give it your best.

[00:15:41] And doing it in the classroom makes it feel maybe slightly less formal.

[00:15:45] But then I think that doesn't really work then because the kid looks around the room and goes, well, if it's not so serious, why have you took it?

[00:15:51] Why is everything, why is everything off the wall?

[00:15:54] And why is, you know, why are you speaking all seriously and all that?

[00:15:58] So it's really difficult.

[00:15:59] You try and do it every year.

[00:16:01] I'm like, we're not going to put any pressure on the kids, blah, blah, blah.

[00:16:05] But then just because of the nature of the logistics of it, you know, I think the kids do pick up on that.

[00:16:12] So the local authority will kind of randomly appear in about 25% of schools.

[00:16:23] I think they aim for where you get no notice.

[00:16:26] They'll just rock up and they might want to see how the test is being administered.

[00:16:31] They can actually rock up any time after the papers are delivered.

[00:16:36] So it could be a week before the SATs, but they will come to check the papers haven't been opened.

[00:16:41] They're locked away.

[00:16:42] So they'll sometimes come and kind of look at that.

[00:16:46] Or they might come during the actual week of the test and they'll kind of, you know, just walk around any rooms that are being used.

[00:16:56] Or they sometimes come after and check that, you know, everything, if it hasn't been collected yet, is it still sealed and stuff.

[00:17:04] So there's a whole window really where they might come and just kind of check that everything's been doing, being done, how it should.

[00:17:11] Yeah, yeah.

[00:17:12] I mean, that is similar.

[00:17:14] I guess the only difference at secondary is you've got like a whole regulatory body that's doing that, that's responsible for doing that.

[00:17:20] Whereas I guess they've just, yeah, they've given that responsibility to local authorities then to administer that.

[00:17:27] Is there someone, Dan, at the school who is like your SATs person, who is the person who deals with all of this?

[00:17:34] So that, you know, they're in charge of where the papers are stored and how they're stored, keeping an eye on that and, you know, making sure that everyone who's administering the test is aware of the rules.

[00:17:46] Because some schools have coordinators.

[00:17:48] Yeah, is there like a central person?

[00:17:50] Yeah.

[00:17:51] So it's, it will be, there will be someone who is assigned that they are in, they are in charge of the whole process really.

[00:18:00] That's good practice to have that kind of person.

[00:18:03] In some schools, the head teacher will want that, you know, because there's so many situations where a head teacher, you know, can get into, can get into bother because, you know, something might have just accidentally been done slightly wrong or a form filled in.

[00:18:20] So some head teachers will keep that for themselves and decide that they're going to be in charge.

[00:18:25] Otherwise, they might delegate it out to a deputy head.

[00:18:29] Often, you know, a deputy head or an assistant head or someone on the senior leadership team will be in charge of assessment.

[00:18:36] So it might fall under their remit.

[00:18:38] But yeah, it is good practice that there is someone who is in charge of the whole process because it even starts months before really where even now we're thinking about next May's tests.

[00:18:49] And you're starting to think about access arrangements and who might get what.

[00:18:54] So there's a range of access arrangements, which some children can be eligible for, such as extra time or some people qualify to have the questions read to them and these type of things.

[00:19:05] So you have to kind of gather up the evidence of that if a child is going to have that.

[00:19:11] So people are already thinking about it, right?

[00:19:13] Who might need extra time and they can get that because of their writing speed or they can get it because of their reading speed and things.

[00:19:21] So you're already thinking about who might get that.

[00:19:24] And then obviously that adds to the logistics because any children who have an access arrangement, depending on what that access arrangement is, they might need to be in a separate room again.

[00:19:36] Obviously, anyone who's having a reader, the readers can only be one to one.

[00:19:40] So even if you have three people who qualify to have the questions read, you can't have one adult reading to three of them.

[00:19:46] It has to be one to one.

[00:19:47] And most primary schools don't have lots of surplus rooms hanging around, do they?

[00:19:52] Exactly.

[00:19:53] Really challenging.

[00:19:55] And then the logistics of that is, OK, well, these group are going to have to do the test first and the other kids are going to have to be almost held somewhere else.

[00:20:05] Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:05] And then obviously once the first group have finished, they go off and obviously they can't mix with the second group because they haven't done the test yet.

[00:20:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:20:15] And there's all kinds of things like that.

[00:20:17] I mean, I mentioned before about, you know, heaven forbid a poor child happens to be ill during that week because, again, the logistics of that is you're having to speak to the parent and saying, OK, well, do you think they'll be back in tomorrow?

[00:20:30] And the parent might say, yeah, I think they'll be OK tomorrow.

[00:20:32] And then it's the whole logistics of, OK, well, they're going to have to come through a different entrance to the rest of year six because they can't go near year sixes.

[00:20:40] You're having to ask parents.

[00:20:42] Obviously, you can't make them.

[00:20:43] But, again, good practices that you say to the parents shouldn't really speak to any of his friends tonight on the phone or the Xbox because, theoretically, a child could go, what was on the paper?

[00:20:54] Yeah.

[00:20:55] And get some last-minute revision in so they're meant to not have contact.

[00:20:58] And so until they've caught up with their peers and they've done the test, they're not meant to mix with the rest of the group.

[00:21:03] So, logistically, it can be really difficult.

[00:21:06] And depending on how many staff you've got as well, that can be an issue because if you've got a wide range of access arrangements, the test – in an ideal world, the kids would come in.

[00:21:19] Most schools try and get the test done kind of as early as possible in the morning because what most local authorities would do is the timetable is set in terms of the days that the test is done on but not the time.

[00:21:33] Right.

[00:21:34] So, you've got flexibility there.

[00:21:36] Yeah.

[00:21:36] So, you could theoretically say we're going to do the test at 2 o'clock this afternoon.

[00:21:41] But most schools tend to do it, you know, kind of as early as possible, try and get it done, particularly if they know that they've got a range of different groups that are having to do it throughout the day.

[00:21:53] It can take some schools all day because group 1 are doing it and then group 2 are doing it.

[00:21:57] They might only have one or two staff available to read the questions.

[00:22:02] They might need eight kids that have the questions read to them.

[00:22:06] Do you ever have external help to support like that?

[00:22:10] Obviously, we have, you know, secondary schools have invigilation teams which you wouldn't need.

[00:22:14] But do you sometimes have external support to help with that, with access arrangements?

[00:22:18] No, not common in terms of kind of getting people in like yourselves at a kind of secondary level.

[00:22:25] It is good practice to have a governor or some governors involved in the SATs process.

[00:22:30] Even if that's that the governor will come in and, you know, do a random spot check themselves to say they've checked the papers have been locked away or they might, even if you haven't had a visit from the local authority, it's good practice to have a governor come randomly one day and check that you're doing it all properly.

[00:22:50] You could, you know, theoretically have a governor involved in that kind of administration of how you do them.

[00:22:59] But obviously, anyone who's going to be involved in any of the access arrangements or anything like that, you know, you kind of have to give them some training.

[00:23:08] So there's a document called the ARA, which is released, which is basically the rules of how everything's meant to be done.

[00:23:14] And does that change yearly or is that?

[00:23:17] It is released yearly.

[00:23:19] There is a new one released yearly.

[00:23:20] It doesn't often massively change.

[00:23:24] There's sometimes the odd tweak, but nothing huge.

[00:23:27] But it is re-released every year.

[00:23:29] But it is a case every year, even if, you know, the two year six teachers in my school have been in year six for years now and know the process like the back of the hand.

[00:23:37] But we will meet a couple of weeks before the sats every year.

[00:23:42] Anyone who's going to be involved in the sats in any way will all be in a meeting and we'll go through, you know, the rules again, even though most of them do know it like the back of the hand.

[00:23:52] We do it.

[00:23:53] Everyone signs to say we've had the training.

[00:23:56] And again, if, you know, if anyone comes in and does one of these kind of random spot checks, we kind of have a file to say, here's all the evidence for the access arrangements.

[00:24:07] Here's all the evidence of the training that the staff have had to administer it, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:24:11] Just so it's all there, really.

[00:24:13] That's just good practice to kind of have that.

[00:24:16] So it's really quite a military operation at year six level.

[00:24:21] And it kind of is, I would say, probably on par with kind of the logistics that you have at secondary in terms of the GCSE.

[00:24:30] It really is that level.

[00:24:32] I'm quite surprised actually, Dan.

[00:24:34] Like I think it is.

[00:24:35] Like pretty much everything you're saying are things that we have to do as well at secondary.

[00:24:40] And I don't think there's much more on top, to be honest.

[00:24:43] Obviously, we're doing it for a longer period of time with more students.

[00:24:48] But apart from that, you know, like it sounds pretty similar, to be honest.

[00:24:53] Yeah.

[00:24:54] The actual fundamental of a paper compared to a paper you might do is all quite similar at year six level.

[00:25:00] Yeah.

[00:25:00] Yeah.

[00:25:01] Can I ask you a bit about the pupils and the parents as well and how they find the experience of going through doing these assessments?

[00:25:11] Because I think you hear quite a lot, don't you, about sort of high levels of stress and things like that.

[00:25:17] So how have you sort of found that with the pupils and parents?

[00:25:23] I think you get a bit of a range, really, that I'd say I've had in my career.

[00:25:30] You have some parents who are very much kind of, you know, I was going to say I'm not bothered.

[00:25:37] They're obviously bothered as their children, but they're very much of the view of, you know, just want them to do their best.

[00:25:43] Whatever score they get, they get.

[00:25:45] These type of things.

[00:25:47] You have others who are, you know, a bit more kind of keen on that and are saying to you, you know,

[00:25:54] is there anything more we can be doing at home?

[00:25:56] Is there some books I can buy?

[00:25:57] You know, this type of thing.

[00:26:00] What's your answer to that?

[00:26:01] Is there any prep that, like, parents and children can do or is it very much an assessment of where they are in year six?

[00:26:09] I can't really revise.

[00:26:11] Yeah.

[00:26:13] It's a tricky one, really.

[00:26:16] I understand the parents who, you know, I want my kids to do the best they possibly can.

[00:26:22] And if they think that for their child that means actually I want them to do a bit more practice of some stuff at home,

[00:26:28] then, you know, obviously they're more than entitled to do that.

[00:26:32] I think my argument would be that if a primary school have got the preparation right, then there shouldn't be a need for too much additional stuff at home.

[00:26:47] You know, we bang on to all of our parents that at primary school level, if you read to your children every day from there, the age my daughter is,

[00:27:00] where, you know, she can't read and, you know, she says some words and not others and things.

[00:27:07] But if you already at that age are starting to develop a love and a culture in your house of we read books in this house,

[00:27:14] then that will turn your kid into a kid that will read.

[00:27:17] And all the research that's out there says that kids that read have better vocabulary and go on to have better life opportunities.

[00:27:25] There's a very clear link between the number of books they read, the number of words they know by the time they're five years old.

[00:27:32] So the research out there, if you read your to your kid four or five books a day, which obviously, you know, for one, two, three year old,

[00:27:42] the books are only, you know, four or five pages.

[00:27:44] You could easily read five books in a day to them.

[00:27:47] If you do that, even if it's, you know, because often kids at that age, they like to read the same book.

[00:27:52] Look, even if out of those five books, two of them are the same book every day and you're just mixing the other three up.

[00:27:57] The research is out there that they will know millions more words by the time they're five years old.

[00:28:03] And the research says then, based on the number of words they know at five,

[00:28:08] is a really huge indicator on how they will do at GCSE, university, and what their income will be as an adult.

[00:28:15] That research is out there. It's really clear.

[00:28:17] So we bang on about if you just read with your child, times tables is a biggie as well for us at a primary school level.

[00:28:28] You know, if they read and they, you know, they learn their tables, that for a lot of kids,

[00:28:35] if parents can really help with that at home, we can take care of the rest in school really.

[00:28:41] And I think it's just that balance, isn't it, with any exam, you know, it'll be even the same at secondary.

[00:28:47] It's revision and preparation is great, but getting that balance between, you know, not tipping it over.

[00:28:57] I think what I've found in my career is if a teacher manages to time it right,

[00:29:04] and what I mean by that is if you start going too big too soon in the autumn term,

[00:29:09] which year six is, they can burn out by May and you've lost them.

[00:29:13] And that's a whole year of their school, isn't it?

[00:29:16] Yeah, exactly.

[00:29:17] If you get the timing right and you kind of, you can see, you know,

[00:29:23] because most year six classes, you know, in schools, whether they'd admit to it, I don't know,

[00:29:30] but the majority of them will do several practice SATs papers throughout year six.

[00:29:35] There's often one around October half term.

[00:29:38] Let's see where we're at.

[00:29:39] There's often one around Christmas.

[00:29:41] Then in the spring term, they might do one or two more before the SATs in May.

[00:29:49] Some schools do like a full mock week, which might be a couple of weeks before,

[00:29:54] where they will try and run it as close to identical as possible to the real week,

[00:30:00] just to test out the logistics as well from a school point of view.

[00:30:03] Is everything going to work on the day?

[00:30:06] If you get the momentum right and time it so you've got them really bang up for it

[00:30:11] by the time that the tests come, then that can make a big, big difference really.

[00:30:17] But yeah, we do get some parents that want them to do extra bits at home and they do ask.

[00:30:24] And there's others who are a bit more relaxed about it really and just think,

[00:30:28] yeah, you know, I'll leave it to you in school and whatever they get, they get.

[00:30:32] Yeah.

[00:30:40] Do you ever talk to the parents about the purpose of the test?

[00:30:44] Because it just seems to me like obviously with SATs, it's slightly different.

[00:30:48] This is where it is slightly different in that obviously when students are doing,

[00:30:52] say GCSEs or A-levels, really like the purpose, if you like, is almost like they're sort of,

[00:30:59] it's helping them to move to the next stage.

[00:31:01] So they'll be going somewhere where they're being selected effectively for how they've done

[00:31:06] at their GCSEs or at their A-levels.

[00:31:09] So the test sort of forms that purpose.

[00:31:11] So you can see why parents and kids would be really anxious about that because it's like,

[00:31:15] oh, if I don't get my five GCSEs at grade four or above, I won't get my college place or what have you.

[00:31:21] But obviously SATs, it's not having that impact, is it?

[00:31:26] It's not.

[00:31:26] No, I've never had to put my SATs results on a job application before.

[00:31:33] So, yeah, absolutely.

[00:31:35] Absolutely.

[00:31:36] And there's sometimes some myths that parents kind of come to us with really about them.

[00:31:44] You know, we have some parents that think that it will impact what school they get into,

[00:31:54] even though they'll know their secondary school already before they even do the exam.

[00:32:00] But I think there are still some parents who say, you know, is it going to impact them?

[00:32:04] Obviously, you have some parents who, at the time of the SATs, might be going through an appeal

[00:32:09] to get into a different secondary school.

[00:32:11] And they're like, is it going to make a difference?

[00:32:14] So some of them have that.

[00:32:15] So there's some of those misconceptions sometimes.

[00:32:19] It sometimes depends what school the child's going to as well,

[00:32:23] because, you know, from my school, we've got kids who go to anywhere between 10 and 15 different secondary schools.

[00:32:31] Oh, wow.

[00:32:32] So quite a wide range.

[00:32:34] Now, some of those schools, we know, use the results to put them straight into SATs in Year 7.

[00:32:40] Yeah, yeah.

[00:32:41] And I know other schools that go, almost say, we don't trust the SAT scores.

[00:32:46] We're going to test them ourselves when they get here and then use them.

[00:32:51] So it can sometimes depend where the child's going, really.

[00:32:56] As I said, the big one often is parents who, as I said, are appealing secondary school

[00:33:01] and they're going through that process at the same time.

[00:33:05] They're often wanting, they often ask us for like, you know,

[00:33:10] can you write like a letter of recommendation for the appeal and stuff?

[00:33:12] And we're not allowed to do that.

[00:33:14] We're allowed to send in a document, but it's a very factual document,

[00:33:19] which literally states, you know, this is the child's attendance.

[00:33:24] This is their, we can put scores on it and stuff.

[00:33:30] But, you know, we're not allowed to write a glowing, you know,

[00:33:32] Johnny is a wonderful boy and we're not allowed to do that.

[00:33:36] So, yeah, there's some of those misconceptions.

[00:33:39] And I think we just try and sell it really to the kids and the parents as one of two things.

[00:33:47] It's we want you to show how hard you've worked in primary school and how much you've learned.

[00:33:53] And we also want to show your new school what you're great at and what you need a bit more practice on.

[00:33:58] And that's how we try and sell it to the parents and the children.

[00:34:02] Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:03] I mean, I, because I've run CATS tests a few times,

[00:34:06] which for people who don't know are the assessments that secondary schools will do with year sevens.

[00:34:12] Often it's not necessarily because you don't think that the SATS tests are right.

[00:34:15] It's just like an extra piece of data that you can put alongside them to sort of check,

[00:34:20] check them if you want and look for anomalies and things like that.

[00:34:24] But I've run these tests before.

[00:34:26] We always say to them at the beginning, like, you know, try and answer every question.

[00:34:30] But also, like, don't get yourself into a state if you can't do questions.

[00:34:36] Because finding out what you can't do is just as important for us at this stage as knowing what you're great at.

[00:34:43] Because that means that we can put the right help in place.

[00:34:46] And whether or not they listen to that or not, I don't know.

[00:34:49] But, yeah.

[00:34:50] I mean, we say similar things to the year sixes.

[00:34:54] You know, I always say to them, you know,

[00:34:56] there is going to be, you know, more than likely at least one question on this test where you go,

[00:35:02] what?

[00:35:02] I don't understand that.

[00:35:04] And it's, you know, it's just saying, look, that's fine.

[00:35:08] Because obviously when I said at the beginning about part of my role is the internal tests that we do with other year groups,

[00:35:17] where there aren't any statutory assessments, that often it's about getting the children to understand that as well,

[00:35:23] where they're saying, well, why are we doing this test?

[00:35:26] And it's like, because it's important for your teacher to know what you can do and what you need more practice on.

[00:35:31] And the teacher then uses that to plan your lessons.

[00:35:33] And it's trying to sell that to them.

[00:35:36] Because obviously, I mean, there's not many year groups in primary school where there isn't a statutory assessment.

[00:35:42] And we've spoke about the two ends kind of reception in year six.

[00:35:46] And we've briefly spoken about year two in the middle now with the optional ones.

[00:35:50] But you've got those tests in reception.

[00:35:53] Then there's the phonics check in year one, which is statutory.

[00:35:56] If they don't pass the phonics check in year one, it's statutory that they re-sit it in year two.

[00:36:01] Right.

[00:36:02] Yeah.

[00:36:03] Although if they don't pass it in year two, they then decide not to make them do it again in year three,

[00:36:09] which I always find interesting.

[00:36:10] And I kind of think, really, they should keep doing it until they've kind of passed it, really.

[00:36:18] If you're going to have that assessment in there.

[00:36:22] Year three, get a bit of a year off.

[00:36:24] There's nothing in year three.

[00:36:26] As I said, year two, we're meant to get a year off now as well with the optional SAT.

[00:36:30] But as I said, how optional they really are, I'm not sure.

[00:36:34] Year three, get a year off.

[00:36:35] Year four used to get a year off.

[00:36:37] But they've now thrown an assessment in there.

[00:36:39] At the end of year four, they now have to do a statutory multiplication test.

[00:36:44] Oh, OK.

[00:36:44] Right.

[00:36:45] Right.

[00:36:46] Yeah, that's an interesting one.

[00:36:48] That's quite new.

[00:36:49] This is only...

[00:36:50] How many years?

[00:36:51] That's been since COVID, really.

[00:36:54] So that's only kind of three years in.

[00:36:56] Yeah.

[00:36:56] So at the end of year four, they do...

[00:36:59] It is a bit more of an up-to-date technology one.

[00:37:02] It's a test they do on a screen.

[00:37:03] Oh.

[00:37:05] Wow.

[00:37:05] So basically, they log in and they'll get 25 random times table questions.

[00:37:13] Anything up to 12 times 12.

[00:37:16] Because the national curriculum says that by the end of year four, they should know their times table up to 12 times 12.

[00:37:23] OK.

[00:37:23] So they've put this assessment in.

[00:37:25] 25 random questions.

[00:37:28] It won't give you the same times table twice.

[00:37:32] It also won't give you ones that are the same.

[00:37:35] So if you get six times eight, you won't get eight times six.

[00:37:38] Right.

[00:37:38] Because it's the same thing.

[00:37:39] Yeah.

[00:37:40] 25 random ones, they come up one at a time on the screen.

[00:37:45] The child has six seconds to type the answer in.

[00:37:49] Wow.

[00:37:50] After six seconds, the screen refreshes and the next question comes up.

[00:37:55] Wow.

[00:37:56] That's quite a lot of pressure.

[00:37:58] Does that make it a bit more fun, like a game though?

[00:38:01] I think for the way children are now, they quite like the fact that it's on a screen.

[00:38:09] I think they don't fully maybe realise that it's a test as such.

[00:38:14] I mean, a lot of schools use something called Times Table Rockstars, which is an app where you practice your times table in that kind of way anyway.

[00:38:21] You know, points and all this kind of stuff.

[00:38:23] Lots of schools use it.

[00:38:25] So it kind of replicates that really.

[00:38:27] There's no official pass mark as such on that paper or on that test rather.

[00:38:36] But the DFE only released two bits of data to do with it.

[00:38:42] They release the percentage of children who score 25 out of 25.

[00:38:49] And the fact that they released that bit of data kind of suggests that you've got to get 25 out of 25 to like pass it because that's all they kind of release.

[00:38:59] And they release the average score nationally.

[00:39:02] But it's quite a new test.

[00:39:04] And what is quite interesting is nationally, it's kind of less, just under 30 percent of kids actually get full marks on it.

[00:39:12] It's like 27, 28, 29 percent.

[00:39:16] But yeah, that's one in year four.

[00:39:20] And then year five, get a year off.

[00:39:23] And then there's the SATs in year six.

[00:39:24] So there's quite a lot of assessment in primary school.

[00:39:29] Yeah.

[00:39:29] That's something that I'm not sure many people would be quite aware of.

[00:39:32] No, no.

[00:39:33] I feel like we should know more having kids in primary school.

[00:39:36] But there you go.

[00:39:37] It's been useful talking to you, Pat.

[00:39:40] For many reasons, yeah.

[00:39:42] Yeah.

[00:39:43] Dan, you know, you just you touched there on the technology used in the year four tests.

[00:39:47] Are there any moves or signs around year six SATs being moving digital?

[00:39:54] I haven't heard anything about the year six kind of SATs or anything like that becoming digital.

[00:40:00] But there are a few kind of things popping up around now.

[00:40:07] Quite a few apps and tools and obviously AI has kind of exploded in the last 12 months.

[00:40:13] And there are things out there now where schools can buy into subscriptions for different sites and things where you can do kind of online assessments.

[00:40:24] So a lot of schools will use a type of test called an NFER test.

[00:40:32] They have like termly tests for each year groups and there's like a year five autumn test, year six, year five spring test, et cetera.

[00:40:40] Other tests are available.

[00:40:42] Don't know if I have to say that.

[00:40:43] But NFER is one of the most popular ones.

[00:40:50] And they've just not they've just recently released like online assessment one where the kid does the test on the iPad.

[00:40:57] It automatically marks it.

[00:40:59] The teacher gets the scores, a breakdown, a gap analysis, what the what the kids could do, what they couldn't do, what the class could do.

[00:41:06] So I think that is the future, I would have thought how far away that is in terms of year six success.

[00:41:15] Because obviously, you know, they get sent off and I don't know how many, you know, every year they're asking for people who want to mark the SATs papers and, you know, a bit of extra money.

[00:41:25] But there's a very tight turnaround on that.

[00:41:27] They have to mark quite a few papers in quite a short period of time because we get the results back within about six or seven weeks.

[00:41:38] So if you think about the amount of tests nationally, I think I've never done the marking, but I know a couple of people have done it.

[00:41:44] They don't actually get a whole.

[00:41:46] They mark on a screen.

[00:41:48] So the result, the test gets sent off.

[00:41:51] They get scanned into some kind of big supercomputer somewhere and they pop up on marker screens.

[00:41:58] But I'm led to believe, I don't think they mark the whole paper.

[00:42:01] They just mark one page.

[00:42:03] Yeah, yeah.

[00:42:03] And then it gets kind of like spliced back together at the end of their total score.

[00:42:08] Yeah, that's exactly how the exam boards do GCSE and A-levels as well.

[00:42:12] Yeah, we spoke to one of the exam boards about this and we actually visited their scanning centre, which was pretty impressive, to be honest.

[00:42:19] But yeah, it's that thing of like to try and avoid the bias in marking is to split the questions and also have examiners who are just marking one question so they can do it quicker.

[00:42:30] Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[00:42:39] What I would like is some kind of a banding type system whereby, you know, because schools are already put into like a banding or a group based on their level of deprivation, which is quite a good indicator of the context of the school.

[00:43:01] We all know that and the percentage of kids that might be pupil premium and all this type of stuff.

[00:43:07] And, you know, it's always baffled me that a school that might have 2% of their kids who are pupil premium and there's a school a few miles down the road, you know, where they might have 60% pupil premium.

[00:43:25] But external people will come in and compare them by the same thing.

[00:43:29] Yeah, yeah.

[00:43:30] So the school with the 2% of kids who are pupil premium will get massively praised.

[00:43:35] You're 10% above national and maths, that is outstanding, blah, blah, blah.

[00:43:40] The other school who are 5% below, you're below national.

[00:43:43] And you're thinking, of course they are, you know, because if you, I can almost guarantee if you swap the staff in the two schools over, there would be no difference.

[00:43:54] No difference, yeah.

[00:43:55] Because, you know, and that's not saying that there aren't, you know, phenomenal teachers in the school with the 2%, but there's phenomenal teachers in the other school.

[00:44:03] Yeah.

[00:44:03] So what I would like is that to be kind of used really, whereby you could group all the schools that had similar, you know, whether you did it by pupil premium percentage or some kind of indicator that said, right, you are a band whatever, 5 school.

[00:44:19] And then only compare them by what was the national average of band 5 schools.

[00:44:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:44:25] Or some kind of system like that.

[00:44:27] It's much fairer, isn't it?

[00:44:27] Yeah, yeah.

[00:44:28] Now I know some people would say, well, we don't need that because that's what the progress data is for.

[00:44:31] Yeah, yeah.

[00:44:32] But I just think, I know from experience that I've been in schools and I've seen schools where, you know, an Ofsted inspector or whoever has gone, yeah, your progress data is good, but you're still below national.

[00:44:45] Right, right.

[00:44:45] Yeah, yeah.

[00:44:46] And it's like, I know I am.

[00:44:48] Of course I am.

[00:44:49] Yeah.

[00:44:50] I'm always going to be potentially, you know, whatever I do.

[00:44:54] So, and then it's hard because often, you know, again, you know, I know Ofsted are making some changes at the minute and I'm excited to see hopefully what they come up with.

[00:45:05] But there are still historically a lot of schools that current Ofsted rating, and I know the one-word judgments are going now and stuff, but at the minute they're still out there and everyone knows whether that's a good school or requires improvement school or whatever, that a lot of them are based on simply the data.

[00:45:24] Yeah.

[00:45:24] When there is so much more underneath that.

[00:45:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:45:27] Yeah.

[00:45:27] I think one of the things I think with the progress schools is that I think that, like you, I kind of think that they're good in what they intend to do.

[00:45:34] But one of the issues is, like, getting people, getting them almost, like, to catch on.

[00:45:39] So, like you say about your Ofsted inspector, it's like, yeah, yeah, I see that your progress is good, but I'm still thinking in terms of attainment.

[00:45:47] I'm still thinking in terms of attainment.

[00:45:49] And it's almost like we've had the progress school in secondary schools for nearly 10 years now, and I still don't think it's quite broken through.

[00:45:59] Do you know what I mean?

[00:46:00] Like, it's not quite caught on.

[00:46:02] It's like everyone still prefers to talk about attainment.

[00:46:06] Well, the other issue is that in primary there are some schools that are just an infant school or just a junior school.

[00:46:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:46:15] So, the problem with them is if you're an infant school, you'll do the reception baseline to get the baseline.

[00:46:22] But they won't have year six SATs, and the year two one's now optional.

[00:46:25] And even if they weren't optional, they don't measure to that.

[00:46:28] They measure to year six.

[00:46:30] So, they end up, they're not going to have a progress score.

[00:46:32] And if you're a junior school, it's, you know, are they going to use the reception baseline from the infant school that the child went to, which is technically a different school?

[00:46:42] Yeah, yeah.

[00:46:43] You know, so how's that going to work?

[00:46:45] I'm not quite sure the answer to that one.

[00:46:48] Yeah, that's interesting.

[00:46:49] So interesting.

[00:46:50] Yeah, no, I'm so – thank you so much, Dan.

[00:46:52] I've just realised we've kept you way longer than what I said.

[00:46:55] No, it's not a problem.

[00:46:57] I could talk data assessment all night.

[00:46:59] It's just my thing.

[00:47:01] A bit of a data geek.

[00:47:02] I could talk it all night.

[00:47:03] You're talking to John, the data manager.

[00:47:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:47:05] I'm sure we could go for hours.

[00:47:07] Yeah.

[00:47:07] Yeah.

[00:47:08] But –

[00:47:08] I am so fascinated by the parallels.

[00:47:12] Yeah, huge parallels.

[00:47:13] Really, really am.

[00:47:14] Yeah, yeah.

[00:47:15] Fascinating.

[00:47:16] And as a parent, as well as running a podcast about exams, I've learnt an awful lot that I should have known.

[00:47:21] So, thanks.

[00:47:22] Thank you.

[00:47:23] Thanks for doing some more teaching in the evening.

[00:47:25] It's not a problem.

[00:47:26] Thank you so much.

[00:47:27] We appreciate it.

[00:47:31] Thank you so much for listening to the Exam Man podcast.

[00:47:33] We really, really appreciate your support.

[00:47:35] Remember that you can access it on all the major podcast platforms.

[00:47:39] Give us a rating.

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