Well, that’s a wrap for The Exam Man- for Season 2 and for 2024! Our year as weekly podcasters deep diving into everything exams was a fun one for sure. Plenty more to come in 2025, when we will launch Season 3 with a bang in February, but for now it’s definitely time for some R&R.
Today we sign off with reflections on what we’ve learned over the last year- about exams, of course, but also about producing a podcast!
With some specific shout outs and a huge thank you to all of our guests and listeners over the last year, we appreciate you all.
Follow and subscribe to The Exam Man on all the main podcast platforms and via our website theexamman.com, to be updated about Season 3 and any previews.
Wishing all our listeners and supporters a great festive season, and a brilliant start to 2025!
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
[00:00:14] Sophie, I think if people could see us now they'd be quite amused.
[00:00:20] One of the many, many times I'm glad this isn't a video.
[00:00:25] So we are recording this just before Christmas. It's absolutely freezing today and we went out for the day and we don't have one of those fancy like smart heating systems which means you can turn your heating on.
[00:00:38] Are they even fancy?
[00:00:40] No, I think they're quite common now.
[00:00:42] Yeah.
[00:00:42] So we don't have that. So we've been out all day and we got back to the house and obviously heating's not been on so we're now sat both wrapped in like duvets so it's got a hood up.
[00:00:54] This is the commitment to The Exam Man.
[00:00:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:00:58] Actually that just shows how disorganized we are because we're doing this the night before we're going to be out.
[00:01:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:01:03] But anyway, anyway, gloss over that.
[00:01:05] So this is going to be our last episode of the year and our last episode of season two.
[00:01:11] We are going to be starting again with season three in the new year but not straight away so we're going to have a little break to recuperate and we'll be back in spring probably a couple of months we're going to have off and then we'll be back with season three.
[00:01:26] We've got lots of exciting things lined up.
[00:01:29] We've done lots of interviews for it already.
[00:01:31] Yeah.
[00:01:32] And we've got a few more in January.
[00:01:35] So yeah, it's going to be an exciting one.
[00:01:36] So what we thought we'd do for this last episode of the year is just reflect so it was only March that we started the podcast so it's not even been a full year.
[00:01:46] But we thought we'd do it to the end of the exam season really didn't we?
[00:01:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:01:49] We didn't expect to end up here I think but it's been a fascinating journey.
[00:01:54] It has.
[00:01:54] So we just thought what we do on this episode is just talk about some of the key things that we've learnt over the last year with all the different kinds of people that we've interviewed, people that we've spoken to and add kind of reflections on what we found out during the course of doing this.
[00:02:11] Yeah.
[00:02:13] So, shall I start?
[00:02:15] Go on.
[00:02:16] We've got a list here.
[00:02:16] Go on.
[00:02:17] Okay, so my number one.
[00:02:18] So we obviously interviewed quite a few exams officers, particularly in the first season while we were doing the exams.
[00:02:28] Well that was what we always do.
[00:02:28] Yeah.
[00:02:29] I think the one thing that I really picked up was that and it's sort of obvious when you think about it but like that nobody who does that job really sets out to do it in the first place.
[00:02:39] So everyone had sort of fallen into that job through sort of strange means and maybe had done radically different things beforehand.
[00:02:48] Or had got like you, had got to the interview, didn't actually know what the job was and then got it and then started it.
[00:02:52] Yeah, and then panicked.
[00:02:53] Yeah.
[00:02:54] So the one that really sticks out for me was Hayley who had been a police officer before she was an exams officer which is actually probably quite good preparation.
[00:03:04] But we also spoke to other people so like Kirsty and Simon from Moncton.
[00:03:14] Rebecca.
[00:03:15] Rebecca and Camilla, yeah, in Abu Dhabi and in Taiwan respectively.
[00:03:25] So yeah, none of them had really sought the role out.
[00:03:28] They just kind of fallen into it.
[00:03:30] But yeah, it seems that some people when they fall into it, they sort of fall in love with it as well.
[00:03:35] I've mentioned this before.
[00:03:35] I really want to speak to someone who decided when they were like 16 in Korea's guidance.
[00:03:42] That they wanted to be an exams officer.
[00:03:43] So if you're out there, please get in touch.
[00:03:45] Yeah.
[00:03:46] I've got another one here which was something that was kind of like a common thing that came up with the exams officers we spoke to.
[00:03:55] And this actually came up in our very first interview that we did with Marina way, way back at the end of March,
[00:04:03] which was about their biggest fear.
[00:04:06] So the biggest fear within the job.
[00:04:08] And it seemed to be a recurring one that what people are most afraid of in the job is making a mistake which costs the school money.
[00:04:17] Yeah.
[00:04:18] And it's really interesting.
[00:04:20] Like one thing that people might not be aware of.
[00:04:21] That's come up in most of the interviews, hasn't it?
[00:04:22] Yeah.
[00:04:23] And I think it's one thing that like people might not be aware of is that the cost to schools of entering students for exams
[00:04:30] and the penalties if you miss the deadlines are like quite extreme.
[00:04:36] Do you want to recap on that for people who unbelievably might not have listened to all of them?
[00:04:40] Yeah.
[00:04:43] So, yeah.
[00:04:44] So, obviously, each exam entry.
[00:04:46] So if you enter a student, for example, for a GCSE as a cost attached to it,
[00:04:51] I think it's about it's usually about £50 per entry for a GCSE for a student.
[00:04:56] And you have a deadline by which you have to make all of your entries.
[00:05:01] I mean, it's hard to sort of put a kind of typical figure on this.
[00:05:04] But just by way of an example, our school is a fairly normal sized school.
[00:05:09] We have an intake of about 200 students in every year group.
[00:05:12] And our bill for exams every year is about £100,000.
[00:05:17] And that is if you make your entries on time.
[00:05:20] But if you say, for example, with the GCSE entry, if you don't hit the deadline, then the day after it doubles.
[00:05:27] So that £50 becomes £100.
[00:05:29] And then when you get really close to the exams, it triples.
[00:05:32] So the £50 becomes £150.
[00:05:36] And so you can see what is already a massive budget.
[00:05:38] So if you forgot to enter a whole class.
[00:05:40] Yeah.
[00:05:40] Or like a whole year group for like a big subject or something.
[00:05:43] Yeah.
[00:05:44] The consequences of that can just be absolutely enormous.
[00:05:49] I mean, I'm, to be honest, I'm sort of at the point where I think that those consequences are too extreme for somebody making a mistake like that.
[00:05:58] I think there's got to be some sort of, there's got to be some way of distinguishing between someone who has like, you know, forgot, who has like made a small mistake.
[00:06:07] And somebody where it's gone sort of really drastically wrong.
[00:06:11] And I don't think that somebody where they've, you know, particularly if it was like a new exams officer or something like that, and they've made a horrible mistake.
[00:06:18] I don't think the punishment.
[00:06:20] Yes.
[00:06:20] And it's happened once.
[00:06:22] I mean, you can imagine someone just not being able to go back into work if they've, if they've ended up costing thousands and thousands of pounds.
[00:06:30] Yeah.
[00:06:30] So, so I think that's something that, that, that could be looked at.
[00:06:34] I mean, the deadlines are important, obviously, you've got to hit them.
[00:06:36] And there's a reason for having them.
[00:06:38] But I also think in certain cases, like the penalty on people is so extreme.
[00:06:43] The fact that it's come up so often.
[00:06:44] Yeah.
[00:06:45] And it's such a, such an obvious fear that people have.
[00:06:47] Yeah.
[00:06:49] So, so those are my sort of ones that are associated with exams officers.
[00:06:53] What sort of stood out for you?
[00:06:56] Well, everything, because I definitely did not know much as much about this area as you, before we started the podcast, which will be very evident to regular listeners.
[00:07:09] So I've learned an awful lot.
[00:07:10] Um, what a lot about the specifics of the job that I think you've talked to me about over the years, but just, you just didn't listen.
[00:07:19] Yeah.
[00:07:19] Standard.
[00:07:20] But I've just, yeah, found talking to other people about it has been, it's maybe gone in and I will listen to you a little bit more, John.
[00:07:26] Um, but I think the broader stuff I found quite interesting.
[00:07:30] Um, so I expected, uh, when we, we were talking to lots of exams officers, which was obviously the, the reason we started the podcast.
[00:07:40] Um, but then we had lots of people who wanted to talk to us about the broader kind of, um, exam space.
[00:07:47] People wanted to talk to us about, um, whether we should have high stakes exams or not.
[00:07:52] Um, and how it fit into the more broader policy questions around education.
[00:07:56] Um, you know, obviously with the curriculum and assessment review, we've had people talk to us about that.
[00:08:02] And I thought we were going to have people who were quite polarized about whether people thought that they should be exams or not.
[00:08:10] Um, and digital exams versus paper exams.
[00:08:13] And actually what's been really interesting talking to a lot of people, um, over the last year is that it's not actually that polarized at all.
[00:08:20] Um, and that even if people are broadly in favor of one or a move towards it, very measured.
[00:08:29] Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:32] So a lot of caution in this area, which is interesting.
[00:08:35] I think coming out of the pandemic, because we didn't have exams for a couple of years, there was a bit of a sense of like, almost like a exams is not something that gets a lot of media attention, but it did for a couple of years.
[00:08:48] Yeah.
[00:08:48] And I think there was a sort of sense and, and, and obviously that the way that our, that media models work now is that the kind of most, um, extreme or eye catching opinions get elevated.
[00:09:02] Don't they? Because those are the things that people will, will click on.
[00:09:05] And so I think you could have got a sense during that period that there was a genuine sort of debate going on about whether or not we should have exams at all.
[00:09:14] Mm hmm.
[00:09:14] And I think I thought, and I think you probably did as well, that when we started talking to people about it, that that debate would sort of come through in our podcast as well.
[00:09:23] Mm hmm.
[00:09:24] But actually what you find is that people like most people are much more nuanced than that.
[00:09:28] Absolutely.
[00:09:29] So, um, and when you have in longer, longer form interviews that we do, which about, you know, they're like 30, 45 minutes.
[00:09:37] Yeah.
[00:09:37] And you really, really get a sense of that.
[00:09:40] I often wonder if you had like 10 minute episodes of people just put their broad view across, you wouldn't really get that.
[00:09:46] Yeah, yeah, definitely.
[00:09:47] Yeah.
[00:09:47] But so we've spoken to Amanda Spillman, um, and Jim Knight, um, and various other people who are involved, Graham Hudson, people who are involved in the sort of, um, the system and policy and, um, developing ideas about how assessment might work, um, in the future.
[00:10:09] And, um, yeah, we, I think we found that there was quite a lot of common ground between people and, and what was also encouraged is like where people disagreed.
[00:10:20] It wasn't like they couldn't see the other person's point of view and that sort of thing.
[00:10:24] So it is, I think it is a complicated, quite a complicated question.
[00:10:27] It involves a lot of, um, different aspects as well.
[00:10:31] Um, and, um, yeah, it was just, just kind of heartening, I think to, to sort of see that, like, um, that there's a really serious discussion going on about, about the system and, and whether it should be reformed, whether it shouldn't, what tweaks might be useful.
[00:10:48] And if it is, that it's going to be iterative and cautious.
[00:10:51] Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:51] That's the main thing.
[00:10:53] Yeah.
[00:10:53] And also like the sense of trade-offs as well.
[00:10:56] Yeah.
[00:10:56] So that like, you can emphasize one thing in the system, but you will lose something over here.
[00:11:00] It wasn't like people are like, no, this is the perfect system and this is how we should do it.
[00:11:04] It's like, people seem to understand that there were trade-offs involved, which is always good.
[00:11:08] Um, yeah, I mean, another thing that was sort of along those lines as well was we, we spoke to, um, people from exam boards, which was really interesting for me because obviously I've worked in this area for a long time.
[00:11:22] And the only people I'd ever spoken to exam boards were the people who answer the phone when you ring up and you've got a specific issue that you just want to deal with.
[00:11:30] So I didn't know that much really about how the exam boards function.
[00:11:35] Um, I knew nothing.
[00:11:37] Yeah.
[00:11:37] It was, and it was, that, that was really interesting.
[00:11:40] I found that really interesting and really useful as well.
[00:11:43] Um, and, um, I think in particular we, when we went and visited Mark Collins in Milton Keynes and he talks us through the process of how they, they deal with all the exam papers that come in and, and, and all the, um, the tricky aspects of that.
[00:12:00] And we looked at marking as well and all this sort of stuff.
[00:12:03] And, um, I think as some, as an exams officer, I think sometimes I'm guilty of this and I'm, I'm sure other people will, will sort of empathize with this of like, of kind of seeing ourselves as sort of separate to the exam boards.
[00:12:17] And even at times, like in a slightly antagonistic relationship with them, but actually it was interesting to see what I firstly, what a massive and complex job they have to do, but then also to see it, put it all into context so that it, I, after having seen that, I felt like I was part of the system with them rather than sort of being in kind of opposition to them or, you know, in, in sort of, um, conflict with them in any kind of way.
[00:12:45] It was like, you're all kind of working towards the same thing that you're trying to do.
[00:12:49] And obviously, you know, that there'll be things that the exam boards doing that we find frustrating.
[00:12:53] There's probably things that we are doing that they find frustrating.
[00:12:56] But in the end, you know, it's, it's a massive operation that we're all involved in to try and get kids their qualifications.
[00:13:04] And yeah, that was, that was a really interesting bit for me.
[00:13:08] Something else that's come up numerous times is how important it is to prepare students for exams much earlier.
[00:13:15] Than you think.
[00:13:16] Um, and that's been quite interesting.
[00:13:18] It's come up quite a few times, hasn't it?
[00:13:20] It has.
[00:13:21] Yeah.
[00:13:21] And, um, um, we set out in this podcast to largely talk about the business of running exams.
[00:13:28] Um, but we also wanted to broaden our audience as much as we could.
[00:13:33] Um, and one of the things that we therefore did was to try and talk to some people who are involved in sort of helping students prepare.
[00:13:41] Yeah.
[00:13:41] For exams.
[00:13:42] So obviously we talked to people involved in teaching, but also people who, um, who go into schools and help students with their preparation for exams.
[00:13:51] And through both talking to people who work, you know, permanently in schools and people who go in and do this sort of work.
[00:14:06] Um, and I think that this is, is an area where I think there is some disagreement.
[00:14:12] Um, because I think there are some schools and some people who work in education who think that there's too much focus on exams.
[00:14:22] And therefore sort of solution to that is to sort of keep year seven and eights and nines away from it.
[00:14:27] You know, like they shouldn't be involved in it because it's just, there's too much of it going on.
[00:14:32] And I sort of do sympathize with that position, but I also think like quite clearly the schools who seem to manage the process of exams well are those that introduce students to it early and sort of desensitize them to it.
[00:14:47] So that when year 11 comes around and they have to sit their GCSEs, it's not this scary new thing.
[00:14:53] Yeah. I remember when we were talking to Dan Walton Smith about, um, exams in primary schools.
[00:15:00] Um, and obviously like year six is doing sats.
[00:15:02] That's another one where, you know, they, they, they feel quite a lot of pressure, um, the kids and they're obviously much younger as well.
[00:15:09] And one of the things that he said was that the schools that where the kids do really well in sats are the ones where basically the kids don't even really realize that they're doing them.
[00:15:18] Because they're so used to being in those situations and tackling those sorts of tasks that it's not something that really phases them.
[00:15:28] And I think, um, if, if there was one recommendation we could make to schools that's come out of this podcast is like, obviously, you know, try and give your students early on the opportunity to get used to the environment that they will ultimately sit their exams in.
[00:15:45] So if that means, you know, taking your year sevens and year eights into the hall, you know, once or twice a year to sit exams under the, you know, sort of JCQ conditions and things like that, then that's something that school should lean into doing.
[00:15:59] Yeah.
[00:15:59] Because ultimately it will help the kids.
[00:16:01] And although they seem young and although you may worry about whether or not they have the maturity to deal with that, you're much better off starting them early and getting them used to it than suddenly throwing it on them.
[00:16:13] Um, in year 10 and 11, um, because it is a very, um, particular set of circumstances and it's good to get used to it early.
[00:16:23] One other thing, so while we're talking about preparing students for, um, exams effectively, um, I really enjoyed as well, we did an interview with Simon Cherryman who, um, works for tutors and exams.
[00:16:35] Uh, which is a company that gives, uh, space and opportunity for students who are not in school and not in formal education to be able to sit their exams.
[00:16:45] And, um, one of the things that was interesting about that is that part of what they do is that they get students in to do mock exams.
[00:16:53] So it's not just about doing their final exams.
[00:16:56] It's about introducing them to the whole process, um, early on and giving the opportunity to do it without the high stakes involved so that they can get used to the, um, processes, the procedures around doing exams.
[00:17:09] So again, I think it's like, that's just evidence of like, it's, it's a really, really important thing is to acclimatize students in that way.
[00:17:18] Um, so John, um, that's just a few things that we've learned about, um, exams from doing podcasts about exams.
[00:17:28] Um, however, we've learned an awful lot about making a podcast with this, haven't we?
[00:17:35] Trial and error, some might say.
[00:17:37] I mean, very much so.
[00:17:38] Um, so yeah, it'd be quite interesting as we wrap up the year.
[00:17:42] What are the main things that you think you've learned about doing a podcast?
[00:17:49] Um, the first thing is, uh, don't start a podcast in your busiest work time.
[00:17:55] Um, during the year, that would be my biggest.
[00:17:59] Although, although I think there was something about the pressure of that, just that time.
[00:18:04] That isn't it like something, don't they say like, if you want a job done, give it to a busy person or something like that.
[00:18:11] And it's like, uh, there, there was a bit of that kind of energy, I suppose.
[00:18:15] It's really good because it stops you worrying about it, thinking too much about it when you're really busy.
[00:18:21] Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:21] And when you're just exhausted.
[00:18:23] Um, so, so yeah, I, yeah, I think, I think in a weird way, it was good to do it with some sort of pressure.
[00:18:30] But it also was the point.
[00:18:32] It was the point of this was to talk to other exams officers who were going through exactly the same thing at that time.
[00:18:38] So it would have been a bit weird starting in December.
[00:18:41] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:18:42] Absolutely.
[00:18:42] So, so that was, that was definitely, um, one thing.
[00:18:47] Um, I think like persistence is another thing, isn't it?
[00:18:51] Like, um, you, uh, you go through periods where it can be very tiring doing it.
[00:18:59] But, um, I think because it's so important to keep, keep people engaged with what you're doing.
[00:19:08] Um, you have to be dogged and persistent and, and, and make sure you're recording an episode every week.
[00:19:15] And, and that sort of discipline is quite, it's quite good actually.
[00:19:18] The thing is, um, you know, the advice on this is obviously to record things in advance.
[00:19:24] Um, and, uh, we really did set out with really good intentions to do that.
[00:19:29] And obviously we didn't know how long this was going to go on for.
[00:19:32] Certainly not this long.
[00:19:33] We were going to, you know, do during the exam period.
[00:19:36] So obviously that wasn't, we weren't going to plan these in advance or do them in advance because it was real time.
[00:19:41] What were you experiencing and what were others experiencing?
[00:19:44] However, um, as the demand increased to do more episodes after that period, um, we really did think over the summer, right,
[00:19:53] and we've still done virtually nearly always week by week, which has been really fun and great, except for when we were both really ill one week.
[00:20:04] Yeah.
[00:20:05] Um, we still did it.
[00:20:06] So I'm pretty proud getting to the end of the set that we did actually do.
[00:20:09] And actually I do think like we do have about, we've already recorded about five episodes for season three.
[00:20:15] So I do think we are eventually like starting to learn our lesson.
[00:20:20] Yeah.
[00:20:20] Which is good.
[00:20:21] How about you, Sophie?
[00:20:22] What stuff have you?
[00:20:23] It's been really quite addictive, um, and enjoyable, which has meant that when we have had necessary breaks,
[00:20:32] it has still been, oh, quite missing doing the podcast actually.
[00:20:35] Um, so that's definitely been a takeaway that it, that it is really, really fun when you get into it.
[00:20:40] It's been really, really lovely to actually speak to and get to know lots of people that we've had contact with over the years.
[00:20:50] Um, but actually to engage with people has been fascinating.
[00:20:53] Um, and I think, um, for me having the opportunity to speak to people really quite easily who you wouldn't normally, um, has been amazing.
[00:21:07] Just as an aside, we've always been surprised by how keen people are to talk to us.
[00:21:13] And how, and yeah, definitely.
[00:21:14] And, and how many people have approached us, wanted to talk to us, you know, and, and tell us about what they're doing.
[00:21:18] It has been, uh, brill.
[00:21:20] Um, and I think learning about, um, you know, things like, so how easy it was to speak to someone about, um, exams in the US, for example.
[00:21:29] Um, that chat with Kelly was brilliant.
[00:21:31] Yeah.
[00:21:31] Learned so much from it.
[00:21:33] And, um, there's something about doing it via podcast.
[00:21:36] It's just such a nice evening chat that was.
[00:21:40] Yeah, yeah, it was.
[00:21:40] It's quite informal the way you're talking to people.
[00:21:43] Yeah.
[00:21:44] And, um, I've loved that.
[00:21:45] The other one I like, like that was when we did the one with, uh, university.
[00:21:50] With, um, Jess and Karen.
[00:21:51] That was really fun.
[00:21:53] Yeah.
[00:21:53] Really interesting.
[00:21:54] Yeah.
[00:21:54] Um, and we've got a great one, um, lined up already for season three.
[00:21:58] Um, talking to someone who's an exams officer in a prison.
[00:22:02] Which was the, um, oh yeah, that, that was surprising to me was, um, that I got emotional during a podcast episode.
[00:22:08] So you've cried during the podcast.
[00:22:10] Which I wasn't, I mean, really wasn't expecting that.
[00:22:12] So yeah, there's been, there's been lots of, um, unexpected things that have happened, but really, uh, quite a privilege, I would say.
[00:22:19] Yes.
[00:22:20] To talk to so many interesting, um, people.
[00:22:23] Definitely.
[00:22:24] Yeah.
[00:22:24] Definitely.
[00:22:25] Um, on that note, one of the things that I think we've also learned is like to not overprepare for interviews, which, which is really convenient.
[00:22:34] It is very convenient.
[00:22:35] Yeah.
[00:22:36] Yeah.
[00:22:36] But there, there is definitely a thing like I wouldn't have predicted of like, I would have always been of the, of the mindset of like you need to do as like, uh, like hours and hours of research and stuff beforehand.
[00:22:47] But the problem is if you do over, if you overprepare firstly, like you don't allow the conversation to move in spontaneous directions.
[00:22:56] Definitely.
[00:22:56] Um, and also, um, you take away the element of surprise and surprise in these conversations.
[00:23:04] Definitely.
[00:23:04] It's always really, really good.
[00:23:05] Yeah.
[00:23:06] Um.
[00:23:06] I love this justifying why, why we, why we did journey work.
[00:23:11] But to be fair, there were a couple where, um, I did actually really research.
[00:23:16] I can't remember off the top of it.
[00:23:17] There was definitely a couple more.
[00:23:18] And I found them a bit harder because you're asking questions when you don't actually know much about someone or something is much more interesting because you're also learning, um, about someone at the same time.
[00:23:30] Yeah.
[00:23:30] As someone else, which I think in the listeners, which I think is great.
[00:23:34] Yeah.
[00:23:35] Yeah.
[00:23:35] So, uh, yeah.
[00:23:37] And also if you've, if you've, if you've, if you've engaged with someone, if you've approached someone or they've approached you, you've probably found out quite a lot about them in that process.
[00:23:46] So you don't then necessarily need to like, you know, go down their bins and stuff like that.
[00:23:53] Yeah.
[00:23:54] So that, that's definitely been a perk of being quite, quite a, I don't want to call us disorganized, but time, time poor people.
[00:24:02] Hasn't it?
[00:24:02] That it's been, yeah, it's been quite fun to do it in real time.
[00:24:06] I think also on that, um, I've learned that this is also linked to the fact that, uh, I haven't been able to be too strategic about how we've planned the episode.
[00:24:15] But, um, just being how we would normally be in conversation, um, is really important because when you're doing a lot of recording and you are doing a weekly podcast like we have done, um, it, it would be very hard to keep up a different impression of who you are.
[00:24:34] Yeah.
[00:24:34] I feel like this is very much how we talk.
[00:24:37] Yeah.
[00:24:38] You know, in our jobs.
[00:24:39] I don't think podcasts really work if you don't have it as like a conversation.
[00:24:43] If it's too like, kind of like a trained interview, then I don't think it, it, it really works.
[00:24:49] You couldn't speak to someone for that long on that basis.
[00:24:53] I don't think so.
[00:24:54] And I think I hope, you know, it has come across that, um, you know, have been really genuinely interested in the people we're talking to.
[00:25:01] Yeah.
[00:25:01] It's been, um, yeah.
[00:25:03] Opened our world.
[00:25:04] Yeah.
[00:25:05] Fascinating.
[00:25:05] So thank you everyone for listening during 2024.
[00:25:08] We've had a brilliant time.
[00:25:10] I hope that you've got a lot of out of it and enjoyed listening to us.
[00:25:14] Um, like we said, we'll be back, uh, in February time.
[00:25:18] Um, I hope you have an absolutely brilliant Christmas and, uh, fabulous new year.
[00:25:24] And, um, and if, yeah, particularly if you're working exams and have a, have a good rest, uh, and get your strength up ready for the big push in the springtime.
[00:25:37] Thank you so much for listening to the exam man podcast.
[00:25:40] We really, really appreciate your support.
[00:25:42] Remember that you can access it on all the major podcast platforms.
[00:25:46] Give us a rating, give us a follow, and we will catch you next time.