EXAM UTOPIA

[00:00:13] So we have managed to move out of our previous bedroom recording studio and we've managed to make our way all the way to the kitchen. So do you want to describe our setup? Yeah, I mean it's really professional. Extremely professional is what we're known for. Just looking at how we haven't put the dishes away. Yeah, I can see there's like bits of rice just sat on the countertops which is nice.

[00:00:43] Yeah, the chair over there has got like a pile of books, two laptops, like a chess set. School uniforms piled high. School bags, cat food down there as well. Then sip because we're all full of cold because it's September. Yeah, classic recording environment this is. Tell me about your microphone so have we got a special cell for the microphones as well?

[00:01:11] It's amazing, we actually do have very professional recording equipment for this podcast. But what we don't have is proper stands for so professional microphones. So when we were in the bedroom we were using like proper stand-up mic stands. But obviously now we're in the kitchen, we just sat at a table. So I didn't have any tabletop stands for the mic. So how are we doing the mics?

[00:01:38] They're just in some mugs which is really professional. They're standing up in mugs. It works, it works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, anyway, anyway, anyway. It's all working, you can hear us, that's the main thing. So the running joke at this time of year is always people coming up to you and saying, this is your quiet time of year, isn't it? Which is like particularly annoying for exams officers, I think. I've thought about this and I think people who say that fall into two camps.

[00:02:07] Basically there's the people who genuinely do believe that this is your quiet time of year. So they literally do think that you just run exams and then you basically hibernate for like nine months and then come back and do it again. But there's a second type of person as well who knows very well what they're saying and they're doing it deliberately just to try and get under your skin. So my advice to all exams officers out there is don't rise to it. Rise above it, take the high road.

[00:02:33] Do not snap if someone asks you if you are having a quiet period. I've snapped in the past but I've learned from my errors. Yeah, growth, maturity. Yeah, so it is quite a busy time of year actually because we're dealing right now with the fallout from the results in the summer. Else known as post-results period. The post-results period, yeah. Which I quite like, it's quite dramatic. It's like post-apocalypse.

[00:03:04] Post-mortem. Yeah, post-mortem, yeah. Post-results. Yeah, exactly. What's involved really? Well, it's busy and it can be frustrating as well because you're trying to move on to the next academic year. You're not just putting away the envelopes after results day. No, well that's a bit of it. Like the ones that didn't get collected, keep those in a safe place. But no, so results generate a whole load of like inquiries basically that you have to deal with. And as an exams officer, you're really the only person who can deal with them.

[00:03:34] So requests come to you from... Well, because you're the direct link to the exam boards or sorry, the awarding organisations. So requests come to you from parents, from students and you channel them through to the awarding organisations basically. So you're really, really busy and you're trying to move on to the next academic year, start to look ahead to mock exams. If you're a data manager like me, you've got loads and loads of requests coming your way about information about the new cohort of students.

[00:04:03] So it is really, it's quite hard to manage. It's probably, I personally, I think it's the hardest bit of my job to manage is post results. Just because it's so conflicting with other things. And it's a kind of annoying process. And the general pressure at the start of the school year as well when everyone's sat back in. Yeah, and everyone's going at 100 miles an hour as well. So to just talk about post results and how they work.

[00:04:27] So basically, I think we deal with two main things as exams officers. One is what's called access to scripts. So that's people who want to get their scripts back and review them, have a look at them, see how the marking was applied to them. And just see generally, you know, have a look back at how they did. And obviously, that's a good thing to do in terms of like if you want to actually do that. Can you do that? Yeah.

[00:04:54] So you can just request your scripts back. I think this has become a really difficult area for exams officers because a while ago, the awarding organisations made this service free. It's not free? No, it is free. Okay. They made it free. You used to have to charge. You used to charge for it. They used to charge for it. And now it's free. And that sounds great on one level.

[00:05:20] But what it means is there's no friction at all in terms of like requesting it. You have to really think about whether you want it or not and whether it's worth it. But I guess if it's free. Yeah, exactly. So I thought, why not? Yeah, yeah, why not? I'll just get all of my scripts back. Is it usually students or their parents who request it? It would be a combination of both. Usually they're, hopefully they're talking to one another. And the request sort of comes jointly. But you have to obtain the consent of the student to get their scripts back.

[00:05:49] And obviously sometimes teaching staff will want to get scripts back as well. And so that's complicated as well because you also have to get consent from the students whose scripts they're going to order. So if the student doesn't want me to get their scripts but the teacher does, it's the student's. The student has to consent to it. It's the student's consent. Yeah. So it's, and then obviously you might have vast numbers to order because say every student in your year group wanted to get all their scripts back. And it's free so none of them have a disincentive necessarily to do it.

[00:06:19] Like you're there like clicking through and selecting like potentially hundreds of scripts to come back. Then you've got to download the files. Then you've got to attach them to the emails and send them out and that kind of thing. So it's a really, it can be a really, really laborious process that I've seen some exams officers speculating on whether or not in the future this might be something that students can just do themselves.

[00:06:44] You know, that they would have a, be given a login to the awarding organisation's site and they'd be able to access their scripts themselves. At the moment it is very, very onerous potentially. I haven't had too many this year. I was going to say what sort of numbers are you looking at? Well, I think it varies massively from school to school, but I tend to not get too many. So I can't really complain that much. But the other reason you might. So why were you complaining at the start?

[00:07:10] Well, I was complaining on behalf of other people. But the other reason, of course, you might get your scripts back and you'd have to do this like reasonably quickly. If you want, if you wanted to, to go through these posts is you might want to see whether or not you think that you might want to ask for what's called a review of marking. Now, a review of marking is not, and I must stress this, the same thing as a remark.

[00:07:35] And this is something that exams officers can get very tetchy about, is people calling it remarks. And often if they're covered in the press and things like that, they'll call them remarks and then exams officers get very, very angry about this. So what's the difference? Well, have you got any sense of what might be the difference between a remark and a review of marking?

[00:08:01] So I thought if you requested your script back, then it would be looked at. And that if there was a discrepancy or something, then it would be changed. No, no, no. Things have clearly evolved. So I think the difference is, right, so a remark suggests somebody taking your script and just marking it from scratch again. Like with no prior knowledge of what the previous examiner has done.

[00:08:31] Like just a completely fresh mark, like blank slate. Yeah, it's not. That's not what it is. So, well, that's what a remark is, but that's not what you can request. What you can request is a review of marking. So who decides whether to remark it? So you can't remark it. There's no remark. You can't request a remark. Oh, right, okay. No, all you can request is a review of marking.

[00:08:57] And if you request a review of marking, what happens is the awarding organisation gives it to an examiner or to an examining team. And they will check that the person who marked the paper in the first place applied the mark scheme correctly. And look for any discrepancies in case they didn't. So it's not taking, it's not giving it to a completely like new examiner and say mark it from scratch.

[00:09:27] It's literally just looking at the marking that the original marker did and checking that it all checks out against the mark scheme, that they applied the mark scheme correctly. And obviously at times they'll find instances where that wasn't the case. And they will need to adjust the mark based on the fact that. So when a school requests a script, you literally just get the script. Yeah, you get a PDF copy. It's got nothing to do with the mark. Well, you get a PDF copy of the script and you can see what marks.

[00:09:56] Oh, you can see the marks on it. Yeah. Okay. Have been given. But they don't review it at that point automatically? No, no, you don't automatically. You have to ask for the mark. You ask for a review. When you ask for a review, you get the option to also get the scripts as well. Okay. So like, but basically it comes down to... But you can't remark it basically. Can't get it like a fresh mark from marking from scratch. In any certain sense? No, no. Has that always been the case? I don't know if I'm honest. I'm a little out of my depth here.

[00:10:25] All I know is what a review of marking is and how it's different to the concept of a remark. Because I feel like it didn't used to be the case like that. Like when I was at school, I remember papers being what I thought was remarked. Yeah, I don't know to be honest. You never knew anything though really when you were at school. No, no, no, no. And you just listened to whatever it was. I just told you. But that was in the olden days. So reviews and marking are expensive is the other thing to say about them. Right.

[00:10:52] So it's usually somewhere between about 45, 55, can even go up to like 60 pounds for a review of marking. So that's an interesting friction point because you have to make a decision then as the student, parent, what have you. Are you willing to bear that cost? So the student, the family bears that cost, not the school? Well, in some cases the school will decide that they are happy to submit a review of marking. Okay.

[00:11:20] That could be for a number of reasons, particularly, for example, if a student is very close to a grade that they might need to move on to something else. Or maybe if a student is pupil premium. Okay. You know, various reasons. Schools might have a variety of reasons why they might decide that they would foot the bill for a review of marking. But critical thing about this, if it changes on review, you get your money back. Okay.

[00:11:47] Because essentially the awarding organisation is admitting that there was fault on their side. Yeah, okay. So you don't have to, you don't bear the cost. So when you submit a review, basically, what you're looking for like is essentially like a win-win. So you get the result from the review that you want, your grade goes up and you get your money back. If it doesn't change, you're in a lose-lose situation. Okay, yeah. So you haven't got the change that you wanted and you've lost the money.

[00:12:13] So you advise families, students and families, if you think they haven't got a chance. Right. So you'll look at how close they are to grade boundaries and things like that to try and advise them. Trouble is, it's not an exact science at all. I've seen all sorts of weird and wonderful things on review of marking. So, you know, you give them the best advice that you can, but you make it very clear to them. So what's the timescale? Do you have deadlines, presumably?

[00:12:35] Yeah, so the deadline is coming up for the review of marking deadlines coming up on the 24th of September. So after that point, we won't be able to request any more of those. But access to scripts goes on until like the 30th of October or something like that. It goes on for quite a long time. But yeah, so people have got to get there if they've got any final, you know, requests for these things. So what else does post results?

[00:13:04] So there's one other, well, there's two other things that you can request. So one is called a clerical recheck. So a clerical recheck is simply checking that the marks were added up correctly. And also that every bit of the paper that should have been marked was marked. Okay. So, you know, that there was no like glaring omission, like in terms of like they just didn't mark a whole section or something like that. So that is a clerical recheck. I famously had a clerical recheck. Oh, no, you did that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I...

[00:13:34] What was that in? So it was my A-level Spanish. I went from a C to a B. Through a clerical. Following a clerical recheck because they found I hadn't added my marks up correctly. This was in 1998. And that meant that I got the grades I needed for my university place. So, you know. So it's worth it, worth it. It's all worth it. So is that often do people ask for clerical remarks if something feels way off? Recheck. Sorry, recheck. Recheck. Recheck. Because they're way off. Usually.

[00:14:04] Yeah, it could be that. I think in my case it was like, you know, let's give it a punt. To try and get... Yeah. Need to try and get this. I mean, in clerical rechecks the advantage is that they're likely to come back quicker than a review of marking as well. Do have the clerical recheck. And then go again if that isn't successful. And then do the review of marking. Have an exam of the review of marking afterwards. Oh yeah, I don't. I suspect so. I can't. Again, I'm like, you know, a little bit spitballing here.

[00:14:32] But I suspect I don't see any good reason why you wouldn't. Again, someone can correct me. Please email us. Yeah. Okay. I find this process really difficult to manage, I think, because there's a lot going on. Like you're trying to get consent from people. You're trying to give people information about the grade boundaries and things like that. You're trying to advise people on what's the right thing to do. You're submitting requests. You're getting requests back. You've got to inform parents and students.

[00:15:01] You've got to update your systems of work. You've got to inform departments. There's loads and loads of bits of it going on. So I've been working actually on something to try and manage the process. I've been developing a little, you know, I like to develop a tool. Love a process tool. I love a process tool. So I've been developing a little tool, which some of our exam screen users will know a little bit about. So I'm working on that at the moment. But it's been very useful for me.

[00:15:28] It's helped me to manage this process much better this year than I think I've probably ever had before. But it's still like is quite a daunting process. And I'll be glad when I get to the end of it. And I can just focus on the new year coming up. So, yeah. So that's me. Start the year. We're up and running. Right. That's enough of just listening to just us. So we had a recent conversation with someone called Idris Fabi, who's the head of innovation and technology at BPP University College. Didn't we, John? We did.

[00:15:58] Yeah. We wanted to talk to Idris because like an ongoing theme on this podcast has been, you know, what does the future hold for exams? Is it going to change? Will it change? Will things stay the same? I think literally everyone we've ever spoken to asked that question. Yeah. Well, if it stays the same, how long will it stay the same for? You know, we're just trying to like understand a bit more what the future could look like. And Idris works in an environment where they do some really interesting and innovative things with assessment. It's in adult education.

[00:16:28] So it was interesting to talk to him about what's possible in the setting he works in and what he thinks is possible in schools as well. Well, and also because he was, he worked for a decade as a teacher in a secondary school. So he really understands schools. Yeah. So he's seen it from both ends. We really, really enjoyed talking to him. Actually, it's kind of rare when you speak to someone who's got a deep interest in technology like he does to meet someone who is so thoughtful about it.

[00:16:55] So he wasn't a kind of evangelist at all, was he? Very measured. He was really measured. He really understands the context of schools and the constrictions that are in place on sort of implementing the sort of thing that he does at a really big scale. But he also is really excited about the potential, which is good. Yeah, which was great, which was great. Idris, thanks very much for joining us.

[00:17:24] I wonder if you can start by just telling us a little bit about where you work, what you do and what's special about the place that you work at. Awesome, awesome. Thank you for having me, guys. Yeah, so my name is Idris, Idris Fabiyi. I'm Head of Innovation and Technology at BPP University, School of Technology, to be more precise.

[00:17:46] And my role, I work with a lot of software, basically the software that we use to deliver our amazing courses, our amazing apprenticeships. And that can look very, very different depending on what it is that we're actually trying to achieve. What makes my place of work very, very interesting is, I suppose it's that variation. I work with various different types of courses.

[00:18:14] So we work with cyber security, data analysis, through to software development. It's just a really broad range of digital subjects and apprenticeships. We're into all aspects of training. It's really exciting. But you do it in really exciting ways, don't you? That's what's really interesting. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:18:39] Something I'm always passionate about is how we can embed technology and how technology will save the day. And that looks different to different people. But I suppose that's what makes my job really exciting and fun. Because, yeah, it does look different to different audiences and different recipients of that technology.

[00:19:02] But the good thing about my role is that I do play with the latest and greatest. And I'm very keen to get them implemented and, you know, get them in the hands of our learners as soon as possible. And, yeah, it's for very, very good reasons as well. It's not just because technology for technology's sake. You know, a lot of the things that I implement are not necessarily solutions because, oh, there's an AI now.

[00:19:30] So we've got an AI assistant, you know. He's the upgraded clip from Microsoft Office. He's upgraded. Now he's in 3D. You know, it's education. Yeah, it's technology where education needs it. Yeah, so it's sort of starting from the point of, like, what are we trying to achieve here? And then fitting the right technology to achieve that thing rather than saying, we've got this great new technology. Yeah. Let's work out how to use it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:19:58] So when it comes to assessments at, when I say at BPP, I'm just paraphrasing for BPP, School of Technology. So we have different models of delivery, and that's really what sets each of the entities apart from each other. It's the approach we have to actual delivery and examination. You know, so our firebrand, for example, we do the traditional exams.

[00:20:27] Some are in person. Some are remote, where we have remote invigilation. You know, around the time of COVID, they were interesting times. I was fortunate enough to be the blended delivery manager at the time. So using Teams or using Skype at the time, it wasn't a crazy idea. It was just, you know, more of what we used to do.

[00:20:50] But it was an interesting time because a lot of problems around that COVID era. Does that mean we stop invigilating? Do people stop certifying? Absolutely not. You know, so we devised, we utilised the technology to overcome those type of barriers. So, you know, we, in terms of assessment, it looks very different in different areas of the business.

[00:21:19] Like I say, so we deal with a lot of apprenticeships. We offer a lot of apprenticeships. And as part of the apprenticeships, being digital apprenticeships, they are on computer. You know, very seldom would you ever need pieces of paper. Although we do have some exams that are sat, can be sat on paper with a pen and paper. Can I just ask you quickly, just because I think one of the things where, like, if I was in a school, you know,

[00:21:47] if I was working in a school and I was listening to this, what I might think is, like, that sounds very nice. I know what you're going to say. But, like, how are we going to assess all these kids in all these different ways, with all this different technology? It requires infrastructure. Money, money, money. It requires money, money, money, money, money to the point. Like, is your experience that implementing these things is at scale, do you think that that is something that schools will be doing in 10 years' time?

[00:22:15] Or do you think that those sort of, you know, kind of real challenges in terms of money and things like that are too much of a barrier in most sort of mainstream schools? Yeah, if we're talking about schools in the high school system, then I fully understand the reason for the question.

[00:22:41] I would say we're not, technology's not matured yet to lend itself to being appropriate for all the different type of assessment that's necessary for school. We're not there yet, unfortunately. Certainly when I was in school, I managed the Moodle system, you know, the Moodle platform. Oh, Moodle, yeah.

[00:23:09] Which is great, but platforms of the future need to be a lot more. I was about to say need to be a bit more. They need to be a lot more because I feel the technology is not as mature as it needs to be in order to lend itself to immersive assessment that you can, you know, you can really rely on. And everyone agrees that that is a fantastic way to assess them. You know, I just don't think we're there yet. And because we're not there.

[00:23:39] Yep. Sorry, go on. Now, what do you think that is? Do you think that's the scale? It's a sheer numbers game or is it around security or infrastructure? What do you think is the main barrier to it not being quite there yet? Or just the technology development-wise isn't ready for that setting? It's not necessarily just about development-wise. You know, we use a platform and I know it's not necessarily the exact same because we're in adult education.

[00:24:06] But some schools also use this platform as well. And when you have a platform that is malleable enough, you can extend it with a lot less effort. But right now, the expertise in that level of school is not there yet. It's not there yet. And I think it really needs, like I said, I don't think it's mature yet.

[00:24:34] It just needs time for us to catch up. But it also needs those who are trailblazers, who are willing to try something new. I remember when I first saw the fingerprint for the accounts. I thought that was crazy. Yeah, that was a big thing, wasn't it? Yeah. You know, it was, what, no more cash, none at all. No more bullying in the playground for the lunch money. That became a thing of the past.

[00:24:59] But if you thought 10 years before that, 20 years before that, that's not even a thing. No. You mean fingerprints? No. It's a good example of that, I remember. Yeah, that is a good example of something that can be implemented that no one thought was going to be able to. But it probably, as you said, had to be really at a point behind the scenes that it had to be ready to go. Absolutely. You know, at scale. Yeah, rolling things out at scale is the tricky thing, isn't it? I think in the education system. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:25:29] We're really led by the government on several things. And I know the government wants to invest, or we'll pledge more to education, we'll pledge more to it. But what does that pledging actually look like on the ground? Is it really enough? Is it in the right direction? You know, when we say more on education, what are we trying to implement, what are we trying to get across? You know, it has to come from the top, ultimately. So, that could be worthy.

[00:25:59] Yeah, and I think, and with all that kind of in mind, do you think there's anything that people listening to this, because we have lots of people who work in schools, listen to this, could implement? And like, you know, tomorrow, they could implement in their schools, something that makes things more practical, more immersive. Not necessarily anything that would be, you know, could be deemed a virtual lab for their subject, but something, some way of bringing that in to how they assess.

[00:26:29] Sure. Sure. And I'm glad you said assess there, because if it was about delivery, I think I've got, you know, I think I've definitely got good answers when it comes to delivery. But when it comes to assessment, to make things instantly better, knowing what it's like in the school confinement, because that's exactly what it is. It's, it's, we're confined. And sadly, we do a lot of things in school because, well, we've always done it that way.

[00:27:00] And I suppose that's at the heart of the question, you know, of this entire show. We do it that way because we've kind of always done it that way, haven't we? Mm-hmm. And that's the challenge that those who are governing the assessments are going to face, you know, because what does a futuristic, you know, and I know that's one of the things you probably want to speak about. What does futuristic assessment look and feel like, you know, and that's, that's really the answer.

[00:27:28] It's not necessarily what we have available to us now. We can't, you know, we can't not give them paper and pen. And I was like, how about you give them an iPad and a pen and a piece of paper and they have to choose? No, you know, we have to do it this way because it's an assessment and assessment's done at scale consistently and fairly. You know, it's, yeah, it's, it's the challenges we have now. It's those confinements we have now. We're just not thinking in, in the right.

[00:27:59] And not that we're not thinking, but I don't feel the technology has surfaced itself. What do you think it could look like then to you in an ideal world? In schools. Ideal world. Yeah. If you were going to walk into the school that you taught him for a decade, what would, what would like an exam, exam day look like? I do think it's important, you know, to be able to jot down ideas with a, you know, with a, you know, piece of paper and a pen. It is.

[00:28:28] But that being said, imagine a world where you have, you know, your, your, your, your, your gym in school. Sports hall. The sports hall, not the gym. The sports hall. My sons, they did have a gym with weights and all. I don't know if that's a common thing. Yeah, you have one. Yeah, we have that. And I, I always, yeah, that's awesome. But I always call the sports hall the gym and I always get told off by the people. See, that's it. That's my, my era.

[00:28:56] But imagine you had the sports hall and next to the sports hall was the examination block. It's always there. Right. You can, you can teach in it and as well as actually do your examination in it. And it's a, it's a, it's a big space because of what you can do inside it. So that idea of immersion, are you aware of augmented reality? Yeah.

[00:29:20] And for your listeners who aren't, it's the idea that we can overlay computer graphics and information over our real world. So imagine you were learning how to do something in a practical way. So that immersion, that school trip to, to, to France, you don't have to go to France now.

[00:29:42] Because with your, with your immersive, and the reason why I've said augmented, not 3D, because I think for a while everyone thought, you know, put on 3D headsets. And then you'll be like in the Matrix where, you know, you're in, you're in New York City and then now you're in a coffee shop. Yeah. Now you're in a dojo. You know, it's, but that, that type of idea where learners are interacting with the, with the real world, with real world things.

[00:30:08] And, um, they're able to, to show their, their, um, their abilities, uh, utilizing the real world rather than, you know, the traditional pen and paper. You know, it's just another dimension for, um, for, for assessment because I appreciate not everyone will be able to move around a simulated, um, environment that, you know, there is the accessibility concern. But this is my, my, my thoughts, my wacky dream.

[00:30:38] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. I think it is like almost what it comes. I almost feel like this has been a great conversation because I think like we've been, we've had conversations with people and it's always been like paper versus digital, paper versus digital. But I think where we got to in this conversation, it's more like what would be great, isn't it? Is a system where assessment was tailored firstly for the thing that you're trying to assess.

[00:30:59] So like, you know, it would look very different in different subject areas and disciplines, but also then it would look different for different people as well. Yeah. Potentially as well. So like you say, like some people are able to access things, other people can't access the same thing. So, so that would be like, that's like your ideal, um, sort of system, isn't it? And I guess just the challenge is like how you get there.

[00:31:22] But I also really love, um, because you're working in this area, just across lots of different industries at BPP. It's really interesting to hear someone be very honest about it's not quite there. Because I think as well as education being quite conservative and maybe stuck in certain debates, you also see a kind of rush of enthusiasm for new technologies and a lot of chatter about it as well.

[00:31:52] That's sometimes a bit, I think, unrealistic on the ground, you know, for budgetary, for infrastructure reasons that everyone who works in schools knows. So it's really interesting talking to someone very measured about who can really see the benefits that could be in the education system, but also that we're a way off and maybe we should be because you want to get it right. Yeah. And I think because you worked in schools as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It gives that. You understand. You get what it's like to be in a school. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:32:19] It's the confinement, you know, you can only do what you're allowed to do. Yes. Certain things were very groundbreaking. Yeah, that's really interesting. Really thought-provoking. That's what we wanted, wasn't it? Can I just ask you about one more thing before we go? Absolutely. Keep going. It's all good. I'm going to push you into like a hot potato issue. I'm just interested in what you think.

[00:32:43] I don't know whether you're aware of this, but not being in schools now, but I think that the use of technology, say five, ten years ago in schools, was just like, was on a pathway. Like it was like, we need more technology in schools. We need to get more kids using technology, you know, jobs of the future, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:33:07] But what I have witnessed in the last couple of years, two, three years, I think, is something of a reaction against that. Partly, I think, driven by people's dislike of social media, but also, which is kind of semi-relevant, but not necessarily that relevant. But also a kind of, I think, parental movement, which is about the amount of time that young children spend looking at screens.

[00:33:38] What's your sort of view on what, for children and young adults, because, you know, a lot of the kids we work with will be 16, 17, 18, about what's the right balance, if you like, between, or what's the right amount of technology, if you like. Right amount of technology? Yeah. It's a good question.

[00:34:02] I, hot take, I don't believe the implementation stage that you're talking about. Don't think we did it correctly. Right. We missed the trick. Like, you know, tablets were kind of like, look, I remember putting in a bid for tablets. We were programming Lego Mindstorms on our tablets in school. I'm talking about when I was in school. They were great for computer clubs and such.

[00:34:31] But what eventually ended up happening is that the actual skills that you should gain from using technology was lost. And I was, I was like really surprised when, you know, my children tried to use keyboards, you know, when, when they were younger. It's just kind of like, you press caps lock. Like, you know, do you not do that in schools? Like, no, we've, we've got a tablet.

[00:34:59] We've got tablets, you know, they wheel out the tablets. And so I feel we've missed an opportunity there. Yeah. Because it's further encouraged children to, to be on their screens as they, you know, it's, it's almost, so one thing I found really annoying with school,

[00:35:19] with my children's school is that, um, I had not let them on YouTube and go to school and have YouTube on the, on the tablets. Wow. Surely that's not right. Yeah. You know, it just sounds wrong when I'm even saying it. So what that's doing is it's, there's no real separation between, you know, what they're learning, what they're using in technology wise to learn with and what they're spending their time at home with.

[00:35:48] And so, you know, the, the amount of screen time, what is the perfect amount of screen time? That's such a, um, it's such a difficult question because if I'm being honest, I've been sat on this computer for about six hours today. Yeah. And I've got another five more, you know, but, uh, but at the same time I do get out and, you know, I do have a rounded life, but, you know, we're talking about children here in their, in their infancy, uh, starting, you know, life.

[00:36:15] Um, and it's possibly not healthy, uh, how much screen time they, they're exposed to, they're allowed to have. Um, so yeah, it's a, it's a, it is a difficult question, but, um, I think it stems in school from, um, adopting a healthy attitude towards these mobile devices. You know, something that I'm very passionate about is that technology did nothing wrong.

[00:36:44] It's, you know, if a child has their phone out in school or they shouldn't have the phone out in school, but it's not the phone's fault. It's not the phone's fault. Yeah. You know, give me, I'll throw it on the floor. It's no, it's not the phone's fault. It's the discipline and the management and the attitude towards technology. Um, but I, you know, I am surprised by the number of children who, who don't know how to use an actual computer. Yes. Yeah. I totally agree. That's not computer use. Yeah. You know, dragging and, you know, swiping is not compute.

[00:37:14] Well, I might sound like an old, uh, like a fuddy-duddy in about 15 years time when, you know, when we're, we're waving our hands in the air and that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And we're, you know, everything's voice activated. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But you're right. Our children will laugh at this conversation. I think that's such an interesting point. I mean, that's so interesting. It is. I mean, my, the school I work at did a similar thing where they, um, introduced tablets, um, as well.

[00:37:42] Because I think if you went back, you know, 10 years, then tablets were sort of, everyone was like, well, tablets will be the future, won't they? And as it turns out, you know, they're just, they're just part of a technological mix now, aren't they, really? Agreed, yeah. And actually, when you're working, I never, I would never work on a tablet. I work on a computer. That's the point I'm making. Absolutely. Absolutely. But yet, in, in schools, um, they're just easy to wheel out a tray of tablets. Yeah, yeah.

[00:38:10] It's more convenient, isn't it, in some ways. It is. You're so, um, measured and informed and, yeah, really, really interesting. Yeah. Thank you. Most people call me boring. No, not at all. I'm joking. Proper, proper, proper interesting. Yeah, really interesting. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on. Um, if people wanted to find out more about you, what you do and also what the college does, is there anything you'd like to point people towards? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:38:41] Um, they can find out more about BPP at bpp.com. Um, and obviously from BPP, you can see our other subsidiary, uh, companies. We've got so many more educational institutions, too many to, uh, to, to list right now. But certainly if you'd like to, uh, contact with, get in contact with me, connect with me. We could, yeah, we can, we can link, we can link in the, in the show notes definitely. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. Really interesting conversation and, um, yeah, yeah. Lots to think about after that, I think.

[00:39:11] Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. And thank you for, uh, having me on. Thank you so much for listening to the Exam Man podcast. We really, really appreciate your support. Remember that you can access it on all the major podcast platforms. Give us a rating, give us a follow, and we will catch you next time.